cancel
Showing results for 
Search instead for 
Did you mean: 

Mass slaughter of +Net directors!

CaptainFantasti
Grafter
Posts: 125
Registered: 02-10-2007

Mass slaughter of +Net directors!

Quote
Could you clarify what your point is?

Yes, I can.
See Below.
Quote
Is it an attempt to besmirch me for wearing standard business dress?

I neither know nor care about your character.

Quote
Or is it an attempt to justify Plus Net directors choosing to dress like slobs, since at least they don't look like gangsters?

I neither know nor care about PlusNet's directors.

Quote
In fact, the generalisations implicit in your post (Politicians cannot be trusted, All used car salesmen are dodgy, Old style gangsters are a real and present threat) seems to indicate that you (at least) are content to rely on stereotypes in order to form a view of someone's character.

All I was doing was putting a contrary stereotype to the one you presented.

The fact that you took it personally indicates that you may, perhaps, invest too much of your identity into your career, or is that vice versa?

Quote
It's because of people like you that business dress is the safest option and, often, the option most likely to succeed.

People like me, eh?

That would be people who don't make arbitary judgements based on a person's garb.

It's people like you, in suits, that make comments like "people like you".

Quote
I always wear a suit and tie. It projects a certain image of professionalism and competence.

It projects an image of smugness and patriarchy.
N/A

Mass slaughter of +Net directors!

Quote
In my opinion. I don't think it's any right of anyone to come on here and say how people should look at work.


Well, I did, and though the thread has perhaps turned in an unexpected direction, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask that a professional should take pride in the way they look, the way they work, and in how they generally conduct themselves.

Dress code is an extraordinarily effective tool to convey an impression, and your apparant denial of this is in stark contrast to your choice of avatar, which clearly does not portray a professional florist!

Quote
I definately think it helps people relax more in the workplace.


Surely they could do that in the pub after work? When I have a support issue that need addressing, their focus on 'relaxing' is of no concern to me whatsoever, so by presenting themselves like this, what exactly are they trying to convey?

Quote
I think some people on here are being a bit too rude about PN staff and don't think they have any justification or right to say what they are.


You may have a point, but surely it is equally rude to present yourself to your customers in a fashion that makes you indistinguisable from a tramp! We have politely ignored this for a long while - it is still rude to comment, or has it finally come to the point where by saying something we are doing them a kindness?

Quote
Yes, if they were more Customer Facing, I would expect in the least a presentable dress code, but they're not.


This last comment of yours leaves me stunned! After saying "I don't think it's any right of anyone to come on here and say how people should look at work", in your opening statement, you now suggest that it is permissible to do so. That's a mighty high fence you're sitting on!

As for "if they were more Customer Facing", can you get more Customer Facing than Official Publicity Photographs for your employer, and a live, 24 Hr multi-camera webcast to an effectively unlimited audience!

- Mike
PS I've noticed that this thread is getting a bit stressed. Liam, please don't take the above personally - I'm solely commenting on what you've said!
Metalguru
Grafter
Posts: 791
Registered: 04-08-2007

Mass slaughter of +Net directors!

Hmmmmmmm

Bethnal Green ?

Isn't that the East London Community that now has the very smartly dressed politician, gorgeous George Galloway, as it's representative in Parliament.

Clothes Maketh The Man ?
N/A

Mass slaughter of +Net directors!

One of the most successful businessmen in th UK, Richard Branson, seldom wears a suit.

Like him or loath him, does that make him any less efficient or successful.

Who are we to judge how people dress or how they appear externally?

A persons character and attitude is what distinguishes them.

Perhaps we should revert to the snobbish attitudes of the 50's and sixties where dress code determined your class or ability. I think not.

Do not judge a book by its cover.
N/A

Mass slaughter of +Net directors!

Quote
One of the most successful businessmen in th UK, Richard Branson, seldom wears a suit.

Like him or loath him, does that make him any less efficient or successful.


..but the people who work for him invariably have a dress code. Would he extend his relaxed style to a stewardess who turned up to work without a uniform? I think not - she would soon have her wings clipped, even whilst she vociferously denied that it made her any less efficient!

It's not about snobbishness or class, it's about respect - both for yourself and your customer. Looking smart in a conventional way may not be a universal panacea, but anything else presents needless obstacles to doing business.

Surely 10 minutes gooming in the morning is not too much to ask, and if it is, what else is 'too much to ask'??

- Mike
N/A

Mass slaughter of +Net directors!

PCSNI wrote
Quote
Do not judge a book by its cover.

I have never understood that homily. Book publishers spend a fortune on ensuring the cover of their books are attractive to potential buyers. So most book buyer do judge a book by its cover.

As regards dress for work most companies still have a dress code, in fact many still have "dress down" Fridays.

As for Richard Branson, I bet he would soon have something to say if members of his companies dressed as they wished. Virgin pilots and air hostesses turning up in jeans, I think not! No cracks please about virgin pilots and air hostesses. Wink
N/A

Mass slaughter of +Net directors!

Quote


Quote
I always wear a suit and tie. It projects a certain image of professionalism and competence.

It projects an image of smugness and patriarchy.



Doesn't that depend on what side of the fence you sit on?

The point of the thread was that the Directors of PlusNet looked like people you would or would not ( as a customer ) be comfortable with.

Quoted here on page one in the thread:

Quote

There's a couple of those that I wouldn't want to meet up with on a dark night in a lonley street

They look most unsavoury


It's not surprising that the customers look at the people who are in charge of the company and make judgements, on whatever criteria they choose to use.

We all do it. First impressions make a huge impact on us. This fact can't be denied.

I side with the remark stated below:


Quote

They look most unsavoury
CaptainFantasti
Grafter
Posts: 125
Registered: 02-10-2007

Mass slaughter of +Net directors!

Quote
Bethnal Green ?...that now has the very smartly dressed politician, gorgeous George Galloway, as it's representative in Parliament.

Clothes Maketh The Man ?

Yes, my point exactly! Smiley

Mind you
Syed Dulu (Liberal Democrat)
Shahagir Faruk (Conservative)
John Foster (Green) and
Oona King( Labour)
also wore suits, so whoever won would have been suited and booted.

And Oona King is also most deserving of the epithet gorgeous <sigh> Shockedops:
N/A

Mass slaughter of +Net directors!

Dixon wrote
Quote
And Oona King is also most deserving of the epithet gorgeous <sigh>

Oh dear, that could be classed as a sexist remark, you could end up in court.

That would make you Dixon of Dock Green :roll:
CaptainFantasti
Grafter
Posts: 125
Registered: 02-10-2007

Mass slaughter of +Net directors!

Quote
Quote
Quote
I always wear a suit and tie. It projects a certain image of professionalism and competence.

It projects an image of smugness and patriarchy.

Doesn't that depend on what side of the fence you sit on?

Yes, that's the point I'm making!

It's a projection of an image; images can be interpreted in different ways.

Some people criticise Tony Blair and New Labour for projecting an image, saying it is all marketing and no substance.

Projecting an image can, sometimes, be seen as a falsehood.

Quote
First impressions make a huge impact on us. This fact can't be denied.

And I don't deny it;
I just disagree with the assertion that the impression made by a suit and tie is one of professionalism and competence.

Some people look crap in a suit, and would look more professional in jeans and a T-Shirt.
Do you trust that spotty youth in the High Street hi-fi store on a Saturday afternoon, or are you looking round for an older member of staff?

They're both dressed in a suit and tie, so why don't they both project an image of professionalism and competence?
channel
Grafter
Posts: 697
Registered: 03-09-2007

Mass slaughter of +Net directors!

Quote
All I was doing was putting a contrary stereotype to the one you presented.


I wasn't aware I was presenting a stereotype at all, but, regardless of this, thanks for highlighting (eventually!) what it was you were trying to post about.

I would comment on the other points you made, but your obsessive quoting has me worried that you are being more personal than you like to admit. If I do comment I risk being accused of "taking it personally" again but if I don't comment then I appear to let your points stand unchallenged.

I will settle for the latter on this occasion. However, in answer the one direct question you asked, you can rest easy: the investment I have made in my career (and in my identity) has been perfectly balanced and I continue to reap the rewards, every single day.
N/A

Mass slaughter of +Net directors!

You are a fortunate person Channel, I am retired, and if I had my life over again I still do not know where I would go. Though by happenchance I seem to have gone through life without touching the sides. Now I am retired I honestly feel that I am in the Golden Age.
CaptainFantasti
Grafter
Posts: 125
Registered: 02-10-2007

Mass slaughter of +Net directors!

More obsessive quoting coming up.

(How else is one to make it clear to which part of which post one is referring? :?: )

Quote

I wasn't aware I was presenting a stereotype at all

I looked up stereotype to see if I was using the right term.

stereotype -
A conventional, formulaic, and oversimplified conception, opinion, or image.


I regard the notion of suit and tie equals professional as fitting that definition.
channel
Grafter
Posts: 697
Registered: 03-09-2007

Mass slaughter of +Net directors!

I think you have missed the point.

A stereotype is the type of view you alluded to in your post a little while back. That was the implicit view that second hand car salesmen are dodgy, politicians can't be trusted, that old style gangsters are a real and present threat. To make comments which allude to such views is to be presenting stereotypes.

I suggested that wearing a suit and tie had always served me well and that doing so presented an image of professionalism and competence. To make such a comment is to speak from personal experience, not to offer a convential, formulaic and oversimplified opinion or image. I was not presenting a stereotype; I was presenting my personal experience.

I then went on to suggest that because of people who accept stereotypes, business attire was often the safest option, and the one most likely to succeed. I am not sure you have successfully challenged that view.

Although you have stated that some people look professional in a suit and others would look more professional in jeans and a T-Shirt (apparently railing against such "sterotypical" views) the only example you have put forward so far is of a youth and a manager-type in Dixons, both of whom are, in your hypothetical construct, wearing a suit and tie and where the key determinant appears to be your preference for age over spotty youthfulness.

However, if these two individuals both were the same as each other other than that one was wearing a suit and tie and one jeans and a T-Shirt, it would be relatively straightforward, I think, to see which one would be projecting the more professional image.

Could you explain why, in your view, it is the rule, rather than the exception, that professional business dress does not project an image of professionalism and competence?

If not, then I am not sure why you are so dismissive of either my personal experience, or my suggestion that business attire is often the safest option, and the one most likely to succeed. (Obviously, there are exceptions: someone trying to be a hardcore gothic music fan in a suit and tie is unlikely to succeed, although that is hardly related to the argument I was making.)

Furthermore, your examples of second hand car salesmen, politicians and old style gangsters are hardly challenging the "stereotype" you perceive of suit and tie equals professionalism. Indeed, if you presented two individuals, one of them from one of the professions above, which you believe are discredited, and another individual from whatever you consider a more worthy profession, both of them dressed in a suit and tie, would you be able to tell which of them was "reputable" and which one not? Presumably not, if you didn't have access to the information which informs your stereotype which is not, of course, the presence of a suit and tie.

However, if of those two individuals, one was dressed like a slob and the other in professional attire, which would present to you the more professional image? Would it be the disreputable person in the suit or the reputable professional dressed like a slob?

I suspect that you may be tempted to argue that you, individually, would not make any such judgements based on appearances. However, you are, (self evidently) very individual. Most people would just go for the suit.

EDITED: Switched a "sensible" for a "professional."
channel
Grafter
Posts: 697
Registered: 03-09-2007

Mass slaughter of +Net directors!

Quote
You are a fortunate person Channel, I am retired, and if I had my life over again I still do not know where I would go. Though by happenchance I seem to have gone through life without touching the sides. Now I am retired I honestly feel that I am in the Golden Age.


Towill,

Some nice sentiments there. I genuinely enjoy my job and I have a wonderful family life. You are right that some of this is luck and chance, however, to the extent that I can I have always tried to, in the words of a certain campaign, go forward, not back, and do the best I can in the circumstances to make tomorrow even better.

I am really pleased to hear that you are enjoying your retirement; I am looking forward to it immensely and I am working as hard as I can to ensure that it holds as many opportunities as possible for me and my family. Someone once said that "Youth is wasted on the Young" and there is some truth in that; but the scope that we have in retirement to become self fulfilled is enormous.