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Incentive to protect the PN network

Community Veteran
Posts: 1,229
Thanks: 1
Registered: 12-04-2007

Incentive to protect the PN network

This is not a rant! Please read if you have the time and inclination. Smiley

The new policy regarding "nntp" is fundamentally flawed imo! :!:

The reason I say this, and the reason I started this new post is to express to the COMMS team my opinion that the way it is setup right now isn't giving your users any incentive whatsoever to schedule their nntp downloading to off-peak times, therefore the policy is not protecting the network and the vast majority of users as it is supposed to! (More to explain below).

I have always and still do, try to be caring and considerate of other users at peak times, by doing my downloading off peak. What I was looking for during peak time was the ability to mainly download headers at a reasonable rate (To then organise anything of real interest for d/l later) and the odd small file.

You are now provisioning 15Gb allowance anytime, after which the users are effectively on dialup. Is this annoying your users? Yes is the simple answer. So why should they remain considerate of others during peak times now? I can't see any! Indeed I can see with this system in place, users deliberately scheduling their 15Gb silver que allowance to the very heaviest period of peak time......... maybe as a protest. How is this protecting the network for all? :? (A person irked will do some spiteful things that would normally be right out of character )

Personally I understand your need to manage the platform and I am sympathetic. I suggest to you we should look at an incentive to encourage your users to schedule to off peak for the vast majority of their usage. (In other words at a time when the overwhelming majority of your users are tucked up in bed or whatever Wink )
One suggestion comes to my mind, and I will put it to you purely as personal feed back. (Your comments would be appreciated, but do with it as you see fit).

Allow an actual throttled service to nntp during peak times ie somewhere between bronze and silver, instead of the awful peak speeds seen b4 on bronze, and instead of the full speed seen at the present with silver!
That could see users capable of reasonable speeds @ peak time in which to d/l headers and the odd file here and there. Whilst maintaining the networks ability to feed gold and silver as normal.
When peak time is over your users should be able to d/l at full speed, contention allowing (This is sold as an contended connection right?)
Importantly this would encourage them to download off peak!

For this to work I guess the trade off may have to be a lowered allowance (dunno), however the important thing to remember is that it should be based on peak time usage only!! A "peak time allowance" (Encourage and nurture your paying users instead of hurting and angering them).

By simply dropping to the bronze @ off peak, as it was before, users should get reasonable speeds, as we saw off peak before the "allowance and treacle" affair!

End of ramble!


I don't know the intricacies of such things, I just see this as a more common sense approach. I am merely looking for some middle ground! Wink


A peace is of the nature of a conquest; for then both parties nobly are subdued, and neither party loser.
William Shakespeare
32 REPLIES
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Incentive to protect the PN network

I see what you are saying and as I have stated I do know that the process does need changing slightly as the post 15Gb speeds are very slow at the moment, this is being looked at and I will make the info available as soon as I know what is going to be implemented and when.

The trade off of a lower allowance while it does make sense in some ways would not really help as we looked at an allowance which would fit the majority of customers and I assure you that only a tiny fraction used over the 15Gb. To lower the allowance may be seen as the sledge hammer to crack a wallnut and I do not want that.

Ultimately this is a massive boon to most of the customers who have the profile of using what they want when they want it and quickly and at a lower usage amount level.

It was never going to please everyone as we like all businesses can only really cater for the 99% rather then a product which suits 100% but is in fact unsustainable and designed round the top 1% of customers.
N/A

Incentive to protect the PN network

Stewart
As per usual this ISP is incapable of telling their customers what is happening. I logged in this eve to get some binaries to find a speed of between .8-4kb/s.

This is off peak as well. Why did the email that was sent out say that after 15GB the speeds are going to be VERY reduced rather then "Bronze" queue or whatever?
What is wrong with this ISP?? I cannot fathom it.

You should just advertise yourself as an ISP that won't accept customers who use usenet, and all I keep hearing about is that 1%. I also decided to move my downloads to off peak hours in the light of the last email about using no more then 30GB during peak and the rest off peak. But even with a serious drop in usage and moving my bulk of download to off peak hourse your just chucking it back in our faces again.

So you need to make a statement that explains what your not accepting not some wishy washy crap about silver and bronze queues.

If you can get someone with a bit of back bone (as opposed to wishbone) to just say "get lost if your using usenet >15GB" then at least we know where we stand and there are no surprises. Do you know what I mean?
Community Veteran
Posts: 1,229
Thanks: 1
Registered: 12-04-2007

Incentive to protect the PN network

@Stew
Thanks for the reply, but I just want to make sure you really do see where I am comming from.

I am actualy saying that instead of handing out an 15Gb "anytime" cap which imo doesn't really protect the network @ peak times anyhow, because it offers no incentive whatsoever for users to schedule for off peak downloading.
Why not make it a "Peak Time" cap :?:
When using your "Peak Time" allowance I propose to provision it @ a decent speed (somewhere between silver and bronze), as opposed to full speed as it is running in the silver que at present. :!:

When the monthly allowance is used up you go back down to bronze, which admittadly means that if a user hasn't managed there own peak time d/l's to stretch over the whole month, then at peak time they are going to struggle, however off peak they can download potentialy good speeds as b4, based on contention (as it should be!!)

Short version:-
So basicaly nntp could be based in the bronze que, with a "Peak Time" allowance per month which would at the least allow users to d/l headers and some files @ decent speeds during peak time, then organise their main downloads for off peak :idea: :!:



Any potential :?:
Community Veteran
Posts: 1,229
Thanks: 1
Registered: 12-04-2007

Incentive to protect the PN network

I'm confused as to why I have recieved so few replies here. I thought some of the usenet users affected would have considered this a more desirable solution.
Perhaps it's my choice of title.
Perhaps I haven't got the logic of it accross.
Perhaps I just talk sh!te

The thing is, I fall squarley into the desired user bracket, because I am unlikely to go over the existing 15Gb allowance. But I was putting this proposal accross as a possible middle ground for the users that will use more.


Thinking about it, I have answered my own question regarding why some of the people I thought might have commented here haven't. It's because I talk sh!te!!


G'night.
kitz
Rising Star
Posts: 817
Thanks: 46
Registered: 08-06-2007

Incentive to protect the PN network

Ian
You raise some very valid points and some good suggestions.

I do not feel the current situation is fair and IMHO it seems like once users go over the 15GB limit they are shunted onto speeds equivalent to what someone on a full managed profile would expect to be getting.

Discussions about the newsgroups have been ongoing with the Usergroup for several months, and I am very disappointed to find out that the proposed solution that we thought was fairer is not what has been implemented at all.

From what I have today seen it would also appear that CS staff where also not aware of what was really going on... so I don't think there's much point in screaming at them either. But someone else behind things sure as heck knew what was going on.

We were led to believe that once the 15GB limit had passed then traffic would be passed down to a lower band ie bronze.. not a full time managed as in "HUP".

Whether they could implement peak/off peak I don't know.. it was if I believe correctly then the measurement of external servers was the problem, and it took many months of stew taking this back to the drawing board and pushing to get the external servers moved to silver.

Where this will go, I'm afraid Ive no idea as yet, but hopefully stew and ben and jon will keep pushing for a decent solution too.

I'm also not a heavy.... I think I used a total of <8GB last month... but I don't think its fair that users who pay £x pm for say 25GB from an external server should be penalised in they way they are doing.

Some/many of these users do try keep to off-peak.. if 25GB is still within the FUP/SUP/whatever... IMHO then they should be able to at least get the extra 10GB at bronze.

Like I said earlier.. I hope stew and co can take this back again so that something more satisfactory is implemented.
woodyuj
Dabbler
Posts: 12
Registered: 04-08-2007

Incentive to protect the PN network

First time poster, but would like to add my two penn'orth.

Having joined Plusnet around the beginning of September (I moved house, was previously quite happy with Pipex, but figured Plusnet were offering a better deal), I was initially very impressed with the speed and the Plusnet Usenet servers. The introduction of the 30Gb peak, 100Gb max limitations was acceptable and I complied, moving my downloading to off-peak times. Then the 15Gb limit came in - I apparently managed to exceed this within the first few days of this month (exactly how, I'm not too sure - I cannot check on this as my billing period runs from the 5th of the month and all I can see now is a total figure for the previous period) and was flabbergasted by the speed which I could then get on Usenet (approx 3k). Being on a 12 month contract would make it too expensive to leave, but if push comes to shove I will. However, the limited download speed appears to have increased a little this evening to a more acceptable level i.e. one that I can probably live with for the next nine months.

Basically, I would wholeheartedly support a system as suggested by Seventhstar - while not allowing unlimited downloads, it would appear to offer a very good compromise and I would be happy to stay with such a system in place.

Come on Plusnet, you may not be able to please all of the people all of the time, but this way you could certainly win back some of them, and create a bit of goodwill.

Incidentally, I'm on Premier up to 2Mb.
Community Veteran
Posts: 1,229
Thanks: 1
Registered: 12-04-2007

Incentive to protect the PN network

Thanks for your input Kittz and mazeppa, it's much appreciated Wink

I also hope that Stew will respond again! <Nudge>! Smiley Please.

The thing is though, I am now susspecting that since my suggestion hasn't really been considered an option so far by PN, that there may be another agenda to explain why they have adopted a system that makes so little sense in regard to peak versus off peak usage. What that agenda is (if there is one of course) I don't really know! :?

It has been said elsewhere on this forum by COMMS that these changes (15Gb cap etc) were being introduced as a remedy in response to people on these boards complaining of extremely slow speeds during peak time (when it was first shiffted over to bronze). Now allthough they have managed that to an extent, I think it is clear to all here, that it still unfairly (and imo unnessesarily) impacts on people who's main interaction on the net is via newsgroups.

:arrow: The throttling that has been applied to accounts after the 15GB allowance is exactly the type of throttling that should have been implemented for peak time usage after the allowance is used up, therefore preventing nntp users from having a detrimental effect on the network during that time.
During off peak is when things should have been put back to bronze (where users found (off peak) they could recieve good speed dependant on contention)allowing for and encouraging neglegable impact on the network and other users.

Sorry if I am just waffling over the same thing again.............I struggle to get my points accross the way I mean them sometimes tbh! Shockedops:


btw sorry for rattling my cot in my previous post! I just need to find my dummy now! Tongue
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Incentive to protect the PN network

Thanks, I think your suggestion is a lot fairer. I signed an annual contract on the basis of their FUP, which i thought was excellent - but obviously they couldn't sustain that. Then they changed it to contention ratio and then sup, but as long as i could download from newsgroups at reasonable speed offpeak I was still happy, but now they are throttling the speeds over 15gb useage this service is no good to me and I want out, but they are saying i have an annual contract and can't. I think that is wrong when they have changed the terms and conditions so many times.

If they were to use your policy then i woudl be happy to see out my contract.
N/A

usenet

i agree i used to download from usenet at off peak times but now what should i. i will now do all my downloading at peak times.
Community Veteran
Posts: 1,229
Thanks: 1
Registered: 12-04-2007

Incentive to protect the PN network

idd martinince, there is no incentive not to! :?
Which was my point all along! Wink

The few peeps that have posted in this thread can't be the only people that this has occurred to either! Wouldn't surprise me if a lot of peeps didn't decide to do it tbh!

I myself have resisted "making the point" ie I haven't used the 15Gb allowance to hammer the network at peak time (I guess I let my principles get in the way), but the point of me starting this thread was to highlight to PN COMMS that their system doesn't give any incentive for us not to hammer at peak!

Anyhow, no matter how ilogical the implementation has been, I think it will now fall on deaf ears tbh. Decisions seem to have been made and set in stone, so I guess this post and yours, idd the whole thread might as well be left to die a natural death! Wink
Plusnet Staff
Plusnet Staff
Posts: 12,169
Thanks: 18
Fixes: 1
Registered: 04-04-2007

Incentive to protect the PN network

Hi,

Moving the first 15GB of Usenet traffic into the silver queue isn't necessarily about encouraging off peak usage. The main people that this change was aimed at was the people who use usenet mainly at peak, but were seeing slow speeds.

For those customers using Usenet all the time, the 15GB is used up pretty quickly and only represents 2 or 3 days of full speed peak time only usage.

The changes to the off peak hours though are to encourage more usage off peak. By setting midnight to 8am into the bronze queue without the rate limit will encourage more people who do need more than 15GB of Usenet downloads to utilise these hours for their downloads rather than peak.
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Incentive to protect the PN network

Hi,

Can someone from Plus.net explain what speeds are likely to achieved during off peak downloads for the following conditions:

1. User is at the start of the month and has not yet downloaded anything from Usenet

2. User has already reached 15GB, and is effectively being throttled during peak hours

Hope that makes sense.

Thanks
woodyuj
Dabbler
Posts: 12
Registered: 04-08-2007

Incentive to protect the PN network

Hi

To dtomlinson - does this mean that Usenet usage between midnight and 8am is now no longer counted towards the 15Gb? Or have I misunderstood your message?

Thanks.
Plusnet Staff
Plusnet Staff
Posts: 12,169
Thanks: 18
Fixes: 1
Registered: 04-04-2007

Incentive to protect the PN network

Quote
1. User is at the start of the month and has not yet downloaded anything from Usenet


That'll be part of the 15GB in the silver queue so should be as fast as your line will allow at that time.

Quote
2. User has already reached 15GB, and is effectively being throttled during peak hours


This traffic would now be in the bronze queue, during 8am - midnight it would still have the rate limit so speeds would be the same (give or take) as people see now during those hours after hitting 15GB. Between midnight and 8am the speeds will increase and customers should see speeds on par with how they were overnight last month, which for me was pretty much full speed.