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HAs anyone seen F9 support?........

N/A

HAs anyone seen F9 support?........

I seem to have mislaid it a few weeks ago....

Previously on F9 Support...
A large number of ticket questions and replies(?) spanning a period of about two weeks. The story starts with an ISP profile of 4500kbps and ends when it reached 3000Kbps. The story ends with our hero, the disgrutled user, wandering off into the sunset in search of a better ISP. On the horizon, in the distance, lots of smiling "ISP" faces calling "me, me, pick me".....

The parting shot to f9...

I refer you to the latest result from BT speedtester below and the stats from my modem/router:

Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
IP profile for your line is - 3000 kbps
DSL connection rate: 448 kbps(UP-STREAM) 4608 kbps(DOWN-STREAM)
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 2793 kbps

Modem/Router stats:
Item Downstream Upstream Unit
SNR Margin 11 20 dB
Line Attenuation 41 24 dB
Data Rate 4608 448 kbps

This shows that the IP profile speed has gone down yet again! This time overnight from 3500Kbps to 3000Kbps.

In total, in two weeks, it has decreased from 4500Kbps to 3000Kbps!!! I am sick and tired of trying to get across to that this is not acceptable! I don't care if you think it is BT's problem... YOU ARE BT!! I am, at the very moment, trawling the web to find a more reliable ISP. I don't imagine it will be either a long or difficult task.

Please provide me with information as to how I can obtain a MAC number to transfer my broadband line to another ISP.
12 REPLIES
Mand
Grafter
Posts: 5,560
Thanks: 1
Registered: 05-04-2007

HAs anyone seen F9 support?........

Hi there,

I've tried calling you a couple of times but the line seems to be engaged.

Unfortunately there is not a great deal we can do to rectify the situation in this case, as we cannot control the IP profile assigned by the BT equipment in your exchange. We can only raise a fault to BT when the sync speed falls below the Fault Threshold Rate (FTR), which in your case is 2396, or when the throughput speed falls below 400k.

I appreciate that this is frustrating, but it is how MaxDSL was designed, and is working as intended.

You would get the same issues with any ISP as they cannot control the exchange equipment either.

PlusNet are owned by BT Retail, but have the same relationship with BT Wholesale and Openreach as any other ISP , including BT Retail.

Should you wish to request a MAC you would need to do this via a ticket to our support team, however I sincerely hope it doesn't come to that.

If I can be of any further help please shout up.
N/A

HAs anyone seen F9 support?........

Again, F9 Support "flannel speak":

"but it is how MaxDSL was designed, and is working as intended"

It wasn't working this way two weeks ago!!!! IP profile speed 4500Kbps and line characteristics wonderful; result none if any errors and one happy customer. At that time we had bad weather conditions but still "the signal came through"!

Look at today; bright sunshine and light winds with line characteristics still wonderful: result IP profile of 3000Kbps and a VERY unhappy customer!!

You are still missing the point so perhaps if a state them a clearly it may help:

1.) Line characteristics indicate 4000Kbps to 5000Kbps downstream speed supportable.

2.) IP profile of 4500Kbps was there two weeks ago.

3.) Since this time the IP profile speed (and hence the achievable downstream speed) has progressively decreased despite unchanged line characteristics, relatively short distance to exchange (approx. 2Km) and improved weather conditions.

THis would indicate to me A PROGRESSIVELY WORSENING PROBLEM!!!!

I don't want to wait for the "Fault Threshold Rate" to be reached before you and/or BT get off you platitudes and sort it out, because by the time it will probably be more efficient to connect by flaming pigeon post!!!!

P.S. The only useful information I have had from F9 support in two weeks is : "Should you wish to request a MAC you would need to do this via a ticket to our support team".

THIS IS GOOD ADVICE AND I WILL BE FOLLOWING IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MAC key has been requested......
N/A

HAs anyone seen F9 support?........

Hi Candlelightsys,
This is exactly the same issue I was having and battled for weeks for a conclusion and all I was getting was the same answers and putting me off going through the fault process by highlighting it may cost me £144 + vat if no fault.
As a fault would not be found as the drops were only ever between 10pm and 3am the rest of the time I was syncing about 2meg higher.
All I was ever quoted were scripted pages.
Needless to say I am just waiting for my switch over to new
ISP and if same problem at least I will be paying about 7 quid a month less for it.

Regards Jeff Clarkson.
mcgurka
Grafter
Posts: 764
Registered: 09-10-2007

HAs anyone seen F9 support?........

To be fair guys, I worked for BT bussiness a while back, and that is MaxDSL working as it is intended.

Phone lines were never designed to carry high-frequency data. Please remember that.

If it is a BT problem (and your line is by BT, not F9) then there really is not much can be done.

All I can suggest is to ask F9 to re-determine your maximum stable rate, and note the word stable!

If your line drops, the rate is not stable, and copper cannot handle it and the speed drops.

MaxDSL is a rate-adaptive technology, which basically means it will learn your maximum line speed.

Its really up to BT to put fiber optic in, now that would be good!
N/A

HAs anyone seen F9 support?........

"To be fair guys, I worked for BT bussiness a while back, and that is MaxDSL working as it is intended."

I take it the temping didn't work out? It is NOT working as intended. I have a very stable line and the IP profile speed has progressively gone down from 4500 to 3000kbps. I have yet to see it fluctuate up....

"Phone lines were never designed to carry high-frequency data. Please remember that."

Totally useless information (do you work for F9 now?) since the phone lines DO carry HF data! (and while we are at it, they were never "designed" to carry voice. Telegraphy was the reason for their being).

"If it is a BT problem (and your line is by BT, not F9) then there really is not much can be done."

Now I'm sure you work for F9 Support! So, if I'm standing on a railway line and get hit by an express then the damage is caused by RailTrack and not GNER? Interesting concept. I don't really care who "owns" the line. I pay F9 for a broadband service, BT "owns" F9 and the "service" is abysmal!

"All I can suggest is to ask F9 to re-determine your maximum stable rate, and note the word stable!"

Definition: Stable - resistant to change of position or condition. I think that applies to one or two things besides my MSR. F9 Support instantly springs to mind! I have monitored my line characteristics over a two week period. They have been consistently good (see below, last 24 hours)

"MaxDSL is a rate-adaptive technology, which basically means it will learn your maximum line speed."

Yes, but unfortunately, it takes 3-5 days to learn up but less than an hour to learn down! Now that my IP profile speed is at 3000kbps it will take some time (I'm wondering if ever) to get back up to 4000-4500kbps.


More drivel from support.

".. all information provided on this ticket is correct."

A definition of "information"; "a collection of facts from which conclusions may be drawn". You haven't given me any facts and the only conclusion I can draw is that F9 Support is as much use a a chocolate teapot!

"Your line speeds are fluctuating some but the speeds are seeing are well within acceptable limits and the MAX system appears to be working as it should."

My line speeds are NOT "fluctuating", as you put it. They have decreased by 33.33%. That may be acceptable "limits" to you but they are dam well not to me! It is not "working as it should" THERE AS BEEN A 33.33% DEGRADATION IN SERVICE which you haven't yet managed to explain!!

"One thing we can do is remove interleaving on your line, interleaving sacrifices speed in exchange for stability if your line is as stable as you state then this should allow for a higher sync speed on your line."

Please do so and at the same time could you chase up my MAC key. The deadline of Wednesday approaches and if this fiasco is not resolved by then I want to move asap.


Line stats over last 24 hours.
------------------------------

Time 15/07/2007 11:34

SNR Margin 11 26 dB
Line Attenuation 41 24 dB
Data Rate 4736 448 kbps


Time 15/07/2007 11:40

SNR Margin 11 26 dB
Line Attenuation 41 24 dB
Data Rate 4736 448 kbps


Time 15/07/2007 11:42

SNR Margin 10 26 dB
Line Attenuation 41 24 dB
Data Rate 4736 448 kbps


Time 15/07/2007 11:46

SNR Margin 11 19 dB
Line Attenuation 41 24 dB
Data Rate 4800 448 kbps


Time 15/07/2007 11:50

SNR Margin 10 25 dB
Line Attenuation 41 24 dB
Data Rate 4864 448 kbps


Time 15/07/2007 12:16

SNR Margin 12 25 dB
Line Attenuation 41 24 dB
Data Rate 4864 448 kbps


Time 15/07/2007 14:08

SNR Margin 11 25 dB
Line Attenuation 41 24 dB
Data Rate 4864 448 kbps


Time 15/07/2007 17:02

SNR Margin 10 25 dB
Line Attenuation 41 24 dB
Data Rate 4864 448 kbps


Time 15/07/2007 21:56

SNR Margin 10 25 dB
Line Attenuation 41 24 dB
Data Rate 4864 448 kbps


Time 16/07/2007 08:19

SNR Margin 10 25 dB
Line Attenuation 41 24 dB
Data Rate 4864 448 kbps


Time 16/07/2007 19:30

SNR Margin 10 25 dB
Line Attenuation 41 24 dB
Data Rate 4864 448 kbps
Plusnet Staff
Plusnet Staff
Posts: 12,169
Thanks: 18
Fixes: 1
Registered: 04-04-2007

HAs anyone seen F9 support?........

The sync speed does seem to be fluctuating though. In the space of 30 minutes it's changed from 4736 to 4800 to 4864, which means there's been at least two sync drops in that period. There's also fluctuation in SNR between 10 and 12dB.

That sync speed equate to an IP profile of 4000kbps, but if it only needs to drop below 4544kbps to go down to 3500kbp and below 4000kbps for a 3000kbps. So it's not a lot of difference in the sync speed.

The Maximum Stable Rate though is calculated during the first 10 days of being on Max and is based on the lowest speed seen during that period. From then on it doesn't change and is only used to determine when the sync speed drops low enough for it to be considered a fault.
Superuser
Superuser
Posts: 8,873
Thanks: 407
Fixes: 36
Registered: 06-04-2007

HAs anyone seen F9 support?........

From the sync rates and SNR margins after re-sync presented it looks like your target SNR margin could be 9db, probably because frequent re-syncs (e.g. like those on 15/07/2007) have convinced the exchange monitoring equipment (DLM) that your line is unstable. Although you presented sync rates over a 24 hour period these are mostly during the day when SNR margins are normally at their highest. What are they through the evening and into the early hours, mine drop sharply then by 3db or so?

Left alone with a stable connection for a period of 14 days the DLM might put the target SNR margin back to 6db which would give you a higher sync rate, perhaps even the rate you had originally.

This *is* the way that rate-adaptive maxADSL works (as is what you were told previously, but do not accept). And in case of doubt I do *not* work for F9, nor do I have any connection with them in any way (except as a customer of the service).
David
mcgurka
Grafter
Posts: 764
Registered: 09-10-2007

HAs anyone seen F9 support?........

no. I dont work for F9, but im beginning to think I should! Just thought I would throw in my 2 cents worth of, what I would like to point out is technically accurate information, so please do not shrug what everyone says off as rubbish, when in fact, you just want a faster connection.

The 3 sync speeds in 30 mins *show* that your line is unstable, which may be a fault on the line, report it, and see how far forward it goes, your dropwire may need replacing?
N/A

HAs anyone seen F9 support?........

"The sync speed does seem to be fluctuating though. In the space of 30 minutes it's changed from 4736 to 4800 to 4864"

That's about a 2.7% variance. I would think a large percentage of your broadband connections vary by that amount at least one or two times a day. A starling probably scratched his itchy backside on my line outside.

"That sync speed equate to an IP profile of 4000kbps, but if it only needs to drop below 4544kbps to go down to 3500kbp and below 4000kbps for a 3000kbps. So it's not a lot of difference in the sync speed."

You are quoting the top end for values of the margin between line rate and IP profile speed (18%, 23% and 25% for 400kbps, 3500Kbps and 300Kbps). It is quite likely to be somewhat lower.
Pendragon
Rising Star
Posts: 425
Thanks: 3
Fixes: 1
Registered: 07-04-2007

HAs anyone seen F9 support?........

Candlelightsys

May I just ask you a question?
Why is the download speed so important to you, do you download vast amounts of data or something?

If you really want to see a speed drop have a look at my thread ‘OK I give up’. This fault took 3 months to fix because it was a BT problem, a problem between me and the exchange, Force 9 were as helpful as they could be, but it was outside their control as it seems so is your problem.

Now after Openreach has finally stopped turning my estate into Swiss cheese to fix a neighbours fault (mine was fine before they started) and filled in all the holes my speed will never get back to what it was and I just have to accept that. The reason is I now have three extra joints between my house wiring and the exchange because of all the underground wiring changes. Something like that may have happened to you, Openreach may have extended the cabling or added a new junction somewhere that is affecting your broadband, a neighbour may have come on line near you and your line is suffering ‘crosstalk’ from their line. The only people who can tell you are BT Openreach not F9.

If you want to scream and shout and throw your teddy out of the pram then do it to those who can do something about it, phone BT voice and report a voice fault of ‘intermittent noise on your line’ and see if their tests reveal anything. That’s what I had to do and 3 months and about £2500 (cost to BT of digging up the road many times) later the fault is fixed.

My original speed was around 5.5 Meg downstream but is now stable at 4544 and I’m more than happy with that. The DSlams in the exchange do work as my speed gradually increased from 135kbps profile to 3500 kbps over the first few days after the fault was fixed and now has adjusted upwards to 4000 kbps within the last week. That’s all I will get.

If the speed varies then the 'fault' is often just simply 'noise' on the line, it was for me, and it is often the final result for others, so many factors come into play including our antiquated phone system its a wonder we get broadband at all.

Regards, Colin.
N/A

HAs anyone seen F9 support?........

"Why is the download speed so important to you, do you download vast amounts of data or something? "

I occasionally use Citrix.

"Something like that may have happened to you, Openreach may have extended the cabling or added a new junction somewhere that is affecting your broadband, a neighbour may have come on line near you and your line is suffering ‘crosstalk’ from their line."

No new junctions, no new neighbours, no extended wiring. And, having used software to analyse the line characteristics no change there either. Oh, and not only am I less than 2Km from my exchange but the exchange itself only serves 390 premises!

"If you want to scream and shout and throw your teddy out of the pram then do it to those who can do something about it"

If I throw my teddy out of the pram people will die. It's a big teddy and the pram is even bigger.

And the point of all this is? Something that both you AND Force9 seemed to have missed. A line that achieved 4000+ Kbps only starts to degrade in service dramatically (and pretty obviously too) over a very short time. A line and connection that a closely monitored. Despite my best efforts to get the fact across I get platitudes, directions to web links, disinterested "nothing we can do"'s and "it's BT's problem not ours". Well that, in my book, is pretty useless, abysmal and shameful "customer service". The result: A five ton teddy travelling at Mach 4!
Plusnet Staff
Plusnet Staff
Posts: 12,169
Thanks: 18
Fixes: 1
Registered: 04-04-2007

HAs anyone seen F9 support?........

Quote
"The sync speed does seem to be fluctuating though. In the space of 30 minutes it's changed from 4736 to 4800 to 4864"

That's about a 2.7% variance. I would think a large percentage of your broadband connections vary by that amount at least one or two times a day. A starling probably scratched his itchy backside on my line outside.


The point isn't the amount it has varied but the fact that it has varied at all. For some reason the line dropped sync in that thirty minute period, twice. That's not caused by a bird on the wire or if it is it's a very dodgy wire. If the line is dropping a lot it's that's what I would be concerned over because an unstable line can easily be the cause of the reduced speeds. As I say depending on the sync rate a drop of just over 500kbps in the sync can cause a difference of 1Mbps on the IP profile.