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Force9 Vision Update Discussion

JonathanW
Grafter
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Registered: 02-10-2007

Force9 Vision Update Discussion

This thread is for discussion of This announcement.
43 REPLIES
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Force9 Vision Update Discussion

'Vision' and 'improvements' are wonderful emotive words and who could fault them? But F9's recent track record reads more like a steady decline.

So - all power to your elbow! but the proof of the pudding etc.

By the way, CGI (the added-value, unsupported, free, poor-relation service remember?) isn't mentioned anywhere. Any vision for that or can it be expected to continue its steady decline?
quelquod
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Force9 Vision Update Discussion

Any ideas what the implications are if any for PAYG? (Only Premier, Plus and business mentioned in the Vision).
Democracy - 3 wolves and a lamb voting about what to have for lunch!
JonathanW
Grafter
Posts: 2,648
Registered: 02-10-2007

Force9 Vision Update Discussion

Hi,

The PayGo/Lite packages will remain the same, as the customers on these packages pay for the bandwidth that they use, and as such should receive whatever traffic they are downloading in a timely fashion.
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Force9 Vision Update Discussion

i have had a quick look at the announcement, and i must say it looks good for customer on the relvent packages, ( i'll have a look in more detail later.) Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
David_W
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Force9 Vision Update Discussion

Ok, so you are going to restrict P2P Usenet AND FTP? For all users if they download "too much"? What next, restrict HTTP access incase people surf the web too much?

Basically, all the people who have complained that Usenet speeds are rubbish, will now find that FTP downloads (lots of Linux distro's use FTP, SuSE Linux DVD = 10GB for instance) are just as poor? If they use it that is, if they dont it isnt.

Ok, my downloads "peak" for last month were 10GB, my highest usage for a month (peak and off peak) is 21GB, so it will not effect me, yet, but how long till 20GB a month total usage is considered "heavy" and on/off peak services on all ports are restricted to 1GB?

Are you having to cap peoples internet usage to have a sustainable network for other services (VoIP for one)?

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From today the usage policies detailed below will come into affect on Usenet, P2P and FTP downloads during peak times.


I assume you are enforcing this as a part of our contract? Then can we have the obligatory 14 day notice before you impliment changes please?

The reason for the 14 days notice, is that a change in contract like that will allow people to reject the new contract and leave F9 without penalty.

/edit - The "Priority", states useless information like "Upto max line speed" and "upto 250kps". Its useless as in its an undefined variable. In the same post it mentions "24MB", but the "upto 250" is that for a 24MB line? 8MB? 4MB? 2MB? 1MB? If its 8MB, is the variable a percentile figure which will reduce compared to the line speeds? 125 for 4MB 62 for 2MB?
Plusnet Staff
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Force9 Vision Update Discussion

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Ok, so you are going to restrict P2P Usenet AND FTP? For all users if they download "too much"? What next, restrict HTTP access incase people surf the web too much?


Of course not, surfing the web doesn't add significantly to overall network utilisation. The changes made are to reward the light and medium user by giving them full speeds all the time and encouraging the higher users to download off peak when it doesn't impact on other customers.

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Basically, all the people who have complained that Usenet speeds are rubbish, will now find that FTP downloads (lots of Linux distro's use FTP, SuSE Linux DVD = 10GB for instance) are just as poor? If they use it that is, if they dont it isnt.


How many people are going to be downloading 10GB of linux distros every month? We what the usage patterns of our customers are, and the majority of customers get no where near 20GB of traffic in a month in total, never mind just P2P/Usenet/FTP during peak time. But the way it's set up, you can download a 10GB distro at peak and it will be full speed, and you can download another 10GB too at peak and it still be full speed and then from there you can download more off peak at full speed.

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Ok, my downloads "peak" for last month were 10GB, my highest usage for a month (peak and off peak) is 21GB, so it will not effect me, yet, but how long till 20GB a month total usage is considered "heavy" and on/off peak services on all ports are restricted to 1GB?


Why would that happen? The changes we've made are to benefit people just like yourself, people in the light to moderate usage catagory. As economies of scale kick in and costs are saved and wholesale pricing comes down you should be looking at levels going up not down.

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Are you having to cap peoples internet usage to have a sustainable network for other services (VoIP for one)?


There isn't a cap on usage, instead we making changes as I say to the benefit of the majority of our customers. The majority will be seeing a better services and improved speeds on P2P at peak times for one because of the changes.

This is about creating a low cost high quality broadband services delivered to the majority of our customers.

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I assume you are enforcing this as a part of our contract? Then can we have the obligatory 14 day notice before you impliment changes please?


This isn't a change to the T's & C's, as we reserve the right to manage the traffic on our network as we see fit and for the majority the changes are a benefit.


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The "Priority", states useless information like "Upto max line speed" and "upto 250kps". Its useless as in its an undefined variable. In the same post it mentions "24MB", but the "upto 250" is that for a 24MB line? 8MB? 4MB? 2MB? 1MB? If its 8MB, is the variable a percentile figure which will reduce compared to the line speeds? 125 for 4MB 62 for 2MB?


The speeds in the bronze and silver queue (up to 250 and up to 500) apply to each of our Premier up to 2, 4 and 8Mbps accounts.

The line speeds are all now quoted as "up to" because of the way that line speeds will be decided under LLU and DSL Max as the line will sync at the maximum speed it can support (up to a set max, e.g. 8Mbps on DSL Max) and BT Wholesale require that ISP's bill the speeds as "up to 8Mbps" rather than "8Mbps" for the reason that the sync speed could be one of many values up to 8Mbps depending on line conditions.
David_W
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Force9 Vision Update Discussion

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Of course not, surfing the web doesn't add significantly to overall network utilisation. The changes made are to reward the light and medium user by giving them full speeds all the time and encouraging the higher users to download off peak when it doesn't impact on other customers.


The reason this would happen is that more people will now start to download from HTTP instead of an FTP source, so the traffic would jump from high FTP usage to high HTTP usage via downloads. If web site A has huge files, and a link to download from HTTP or FTP, people are just going to hit the HTTP link (and not only because Windows sucks when it comes from FTP downloading via a browser). So eventually, well, pretty soonish, you may find the high users that chalk up massive downloads via the FTP medium, are downloading massive chunks via HTTP, so Plusnet will put a limit on that too.

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How many people are going to be downloading 10GB of linux distros every month? We what the usage patterns of our customers are, and the majority of customers get no where near 20GB of traffic in a month in total, never mind just P2P/Usenet/FTP during peak time. But the way it's set up, you can download a 10GB distro at peak and it will be full speed, and you can download another 10GB too at peak and it still be full speed and then from there you can download more off peak at full speed.


I agree, I dont actually know how people can download so much (I guess I'm in the minority myself having hit 21GB though :p), in fact I cant think of any time I would download so much, unless I want to test out a few different distro's, grab hold of SuSE, Mandrake, Fedora, grab all the updates and patches and whatnot, I'm sure thats at least a terrabyte or two >.<

I think what I was getting at (its been a few hours, I forget easily), is that overall Usenet slowed down due to "management", at least from the threads I read on this forum, so by managing all downloads via these three mediums, how soon until the forum is active with "why am I downloading at 2kps?" threads?

Also, there is also the fact that a normal PC can display Video in HD format (no need to buy an expensive TV), the 1080i (or whatever) is beautiful, but a 1 minute trailer of Terminator 2, was 100MB, so 10 minutes per gig, 100 minutes for 10GB, so if a HD Movie was released onto the internet, and its 100 minutes, thats hitting the 20GB. (I say released as in made available for public viewing, not "ere guv'nor, wanna get the latest release for a fiver?" type Wink)

With a 24MB connection, running at its maximum speed, based on my 2MB speeds, I can download at say 200Kps, so 200*12= 2.4mb/sec download time, in 60 seconds I could download easily, a streamed HD movie at 1080i (or whatever it is, really should look into that). An emergent technology, which could be pipped over the internet, is now out of reach to home users on the 24M lines.

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Why would that happen? The changes we've made are to benefit people just like yourself, people in the light to moderate usage catagory. As economies of scale kick in and costs are saved and wholesale pricing comes down you should be looking at levels going up not down.


You said earlier, the majority of your users dont use 20GB in total, you obviously want the best traffic for the majority of your users, when you do get rid of the "omg I wanna download 23345345TB today!" crowd, the next minorty will be todays "moderate" users.

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The rest (I'm lazy, sorry)


Thanks for clearing up the restrictions, so no matter what your line speed, if you get restricted, you will be restricted to those speeds? And as 2MB is your "basic" account, it will be a reduction from 200kps to 250kps? Not sure if a 512k user (those that cant get 1mb) can actually reach the limits, so limiting them to 500kps, isnt really much use :p

Anyhow, dont get me wrong, I'm actually for F9 taking measures that get rid of the massive bandwith hogs, when you have trouble loading up google on a 2MB line though, you have to wonder what F9 are actually doing. Is there enough available bandwith currently for everyone? I know google has so much spare bandwith, ISP's get jealous, but I keep seeing F9 add clause after clause after clause.

Ok, so I'm a light to moderate user, these changes will not effect me, directly at least, but will they effect me indirectly? Will I actually be able to type in a search into my google toolbar and not have to hit "Search" a couple of times? Will The Register actually display the page within a second, or will I continue to have to wait a minute for it to load? These things are important to me, but what is also important to me, and I guess to a lot of people, is that we do not continue to see an errosion of the things we currently take for granted, like downloading a ton of por... ummm.... political broadcasts in HD.
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Force9 Vision Update Discussion

oh god not another pile of poo and more complicated tables of usage restrictions.

I'm now even more confused than ever. Am I right in thinking that this new plan will now mean that there is no GB usage restrictions whatsoever during off-peak times, but that someone with an 8Mb line will not be alowed to download faster than 500kb/s even during off-peak? (madness). And how come the Gold queue suddenly seems to have capped limits now? I thought the customers that used gold queue applications were your darlings? (I suppose the real darlings are the ones who pay for a service and then simply don't use it).

My brain can't handle yet another mad scheme being tested on us poor lab-rats.

I think plusnet are taking a huge gamble here that all their competitors will soon collapse without this prioritising/shaping stuff... if it doesn't happen then plusnets reputation among the techie community will never recover.

Have plusnet not considered that in the future the cost of BT pipes will get considerably cheaper so the other ISP's that don't shape their traffic will still be able to compete simply by buying more bandwidth.

Spare a thought for those poor customers in Korea who can only get 100Mbit/s broadband while we continue to only dream of 8Mbit/s.
David_W
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Force9 Vision Update Discussion

In addition to my earlier post. In 2006 the BBC may be launching a VOD service called iMP, this will allow you to download the previous 7 days worth of content from the BBC via iMP which uses P2P networking.

Now, most people out there dont want to download tons of software, but dear old aunty joan missed neighbours, and eastenders, whilst uncle frank wants to get top gear, they dont have Sky+ but the BBC has made a huge song and dance about their new interactive service!

Now, Eastenders comes in at 187MB, so would Neigbours, Top Gear would be about 374MB, so just to download them, thats 748MB - however, its P2P, so you upload and download at the same time, so lets add 50%, thats 1GB.

Now, neighbours is on every day, eastenders, I'm not sure about, tuesdays and thursdays isnt it? Aunty Joan wants them downloaded, she's doing charity work at the local charity store and wont be home till 6:30, and she also loves that chap from that antiques show, but its ok, her nephew is puter savy, he's linked their computer to the TV via a DVI cable, so they can just watch them on that.

So, neighbours is 187*5 = 935MB, Eastenders is 187*2=374, and that lovely chap from that antiques show is 935MB, thats 2GB, in a week, lets add the usual 1GB upload on the P2P, so thats 3GB, in a month, thats totaling up to 12GB.

Add in a couple of top BBC dramas at 561 and 748, and suddenly the "Barrier" that F9 are putting up, suddenly doesnt seem so good. Aunty is now downloading from Aunty at really bad speeds, her nephew explains "you've watched too much telly on your computer, you have to stop using it so much".

So, the BBC isnt going to be the only one doing this of course, odds are Sky will offer something similar to customers, and then ITV will follow suit, you'll end up with the broadcasting companies offering content for download on the internet.

Who then will be the loser in this? The answer is ISP's who are not investing in the infrastructure where they can cope with serious demand for multimedia.

ISP's that only offer 1GB/month will be the first to suffer badly, customers will be wanting to get the new "free" content, 1GB isnt enough, they will move ISP's.

ISP's that limit P2P networks so you cant get hold of the content will be next in line. F9's basic account which throttles P2P to death is one of these, people on these accounts that want to use the services will want to upgrade to an account that lets them watch the BBC shows etc..

ISP's that give an upper limit on P2P before throttling will be hit next, customers will want to upgrade to an account that gives them unlimited access to the content, not access for the first few bits of TV then shunt them down the list to "why am I downloading so slow?"

ISP's that allow heavy users will be hit also, if normal users start to congest their pipes with the BBC service, the overall service will deteriate to the point where it will seem they are being throttled.

The only ISP's that will be the winners, are the ones that have invested in a managed infrastructure that can cope with the high demand that the broadcasters are going to put on the ISP, whilst maintaining an excellent all round service, and not have the need to throttle high P2P usage from the broadcasting software. In other words, the ones that keep the high users off their network whilst having enough redundancy to cope with their users downloading "that bloody good drama on BBC3 last night" and "neighbours".

/edit - from my previous post before, on HD, the BBC iMP already offers HD downloads of their programmes, as more come along, BW goes up.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2005/11_november/08/hdtv.shtml
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Force9 Vision Update Discussion

I *think* I like the new rules, but they seem overly complicated. I'm pretty sure I understand them all now, but only after several read throughs.

Surely there must be a simpler way?
JonathanW
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Registered: 02-10-2007

Force9 Vision Update Discussion

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With a 24MB connection, running at its maximum speed, based on my 2MB speeds, I can download at say 200Kps, so 200*12= 2.4mb/sec download time, in 60 seconds I could download easily, a streamed HD movie at 1080i (or whatever it is, really should look into that). An emergent technology, which could be pipped over the internet, is now out of reach to home users on the 24M lines.

The 20gb usage level in gold is for the £21.99 Up To 2mb package. The Up to 4mb and UP To 8mb packages both have higher usage allowances within the gold queue. So its not a case of someone on 24mb only having a fast usage of 20gb during peak hours.

You also have to keep in mind that this is only during the peak hours listed, between midnight and eight in the morning, the usage isn't being counted towards these usage levels.

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You said earlier, the majority of your users dont use 20GB in total, you obviously want the best traffic for the majority of your users, when you do get rid of the "omg I wanna download 23345345TB today!" crowd, the next minorty will be todays "moderate" users.


That's the thing with heavy downloaders, the 1% as it were, as we grow as a company that means we're also going to have a few more people who think that downloading hundreds of gigs each month is acceptable. As Dave said, as things move forwards you should epxect to see the usage levels increase, rather than decrease.

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Thanks for clearing up the restrictions, so no matter what your line speed, if you get restricted, you will be restricted to those speeds? And as 2MB is your "basic" account, it will be a reduction from 200kps to 250kps? Not sure if a 512k user (those that cant get 1mb) can actually reach the limits, so limiting them to 500kps, isnt really much use :p

I think you're getting a little confused with the speeds here, as this is 200kbps, rather than 200KB/s. So a 2mb line (2000kbps) dropping down to 500kbps and then 250kbps is a drop. Similarly, a 512k line dropping to 250kbps is also a drop.

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Ok, so I'm a light to moderate user, these changes will not effect me, directly at least, but will they effect me indirectly? Will I actually be able to type in a search into my google toolbar and not have to hit "Search" a couple of times? Will The Register actually display the page within a second, or will I continue to have to wait a minute for it to load? These things are important to me, but what is also important to me, and I guess to a lot of people, is that we do not continue to see an errosion of the things we currently take for granted, like downloading a ton of por... ummm.... political broadcasts in HD.


This will see things improve for the light to moderate users, in the areas covered by the ammendmants announced yesterday. However, if you're experiencing slow speeds via http, then there could be something else at fault, and you might wish to look into checking out your exchange status and also the underlying speed of your line, to ensure that there isn't a different matter causing your slowdown. As, with http being given priority within the network, youu should always get good speeds on this kind of connection.
JonathanW
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Force9 Vision Update Discussion

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I'm now even more confused than ever. Am I right in thinking that this new plan will now mean that there is no GB usage restrictions whatsoever during off-peak times, but that someone with an 8Mb line will not be alowed to download faster than 500kb/s even during off-peak? (madness). And how come the Gold queue suddenly seems to have capped limits now? I thought the customers that used gold queue applications were your darlings? (I suppose the real darlings are the ones who pay for a service and then simply don't use it).

No, SUP is still in place, so your over all usage still has to be governed by that. However, the changes announced will see the light to moderate users with better performance during peak hours. During the off-peak hours, speeds should be close to the full line speed, as governed by the protocol that you're using, and line quality.

This isn't covering the whole of traffic that is classed as gold, but instead giving people an ammount of p2p/usenet/ftp traffic that they can download at full speed, during peak times. Http and other gold traffic isn't classed in this.

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I think plusnet are taking a huge gamble here that all their competitors will soon collapse without this prioritising/shaping stuff... if it doesn't happen then plusnets reputation among the techie community will never recover.

This is something that's already happening, there have been a few big ISPs who've asked people to either pay large fees for additional bandwidth, or asked them to leave, with varying degrees of politness, over the past couple of months. Just look at some of the comments made about BT, when quite a few users suddenly received bills for their bandwidth.

More of this is likely to happen over the comming months, but from the smaller ISPs. They're either going to have to introduce some form of usage levels or introduce shaping. The other option that they have is being bought by one of the other ISPs.

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Have plusnet not considered that in the future the cost of BT pipes will get considerably cheaper so the other ISP's that don't shape their traffic will still be able to compete simply by buying more bandwidth.

We know that the cost of the centrals is likely to go down, but simply adding more capacity to the network doesn't solve one of the underlying problems. Without shaping, p2p traffic will simply grow to use all of the available bandwidth, meaning that things like http, VoIP and other such services, will suffer.
JonathanW
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Registered: 02-10-2007

Force9 Vision Update Discussion

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In addition to my earlier post. In 2006 the BBC may be launching a VOD service called iMP, this will allow you to download the previous 7 days worth of content from the BBC via iMP which uses P2P networking.

We're aware of this, and there's also a similar offering from Sky being talked about as well. Its this kind of new technology that we're working towards being able to support.

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The only ISP's that will be the winners, are the ones that have invested in a managed infrastructure that can cope with the high demand that the broadcasters are going to put on the ISP, whilst maintaining an excellent all round service, and not have the need to throttle high P2P usage from the broadcasting software. In other words, the ones that keep the high users off their network whilst having enough redundancy to cope with their users downloading "that [censored] good drama on BBC3 last night" and "neighbours".


This is why we're building the managed broadband platform. You have to keep in mind that the usage levels announced yeterday are only during peak hours. Whilst I know not everyone wants to leave their computer running over night to download things, it is a viable alternative should you reach the point where slow speeds start to become apparant on p2p downloads. Additionally, as we move into 2006, the peak times for the p2p/usenet/ftp usage will be being reduced back to the same times as the SUP currently classes as peak. So Aunty can set her download running in the morning, before she goes out to do her charity work for the day, and when she gets in later that evening it should be downloaded.

Additionally, as the cost of things like the centrals reduces, we will be able to increase the usage levels, so these will be going up rather than down as we move forwards.

All that being said, there is one flaw with services like the BBCs iMP, whether they be free services or subscription services. The company providing the download is the only company that's going to make any money out of it. As its the ISP who has to pay for the bandwidth being used to provide the content to the customer, not the company offering the download.
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Force9 Vision Update Discussion

sorry but i've got to laugh about this one....