customising the forum design

[#1]

Given the posts over the last few months about the design of this site, it occurs to me that "one size fits all" simply isn't going to work for the Community Site forums, simply because people's views on what "looks good" are so radically different.
So - this is a request for the forum pages to be fully-customisable (by each customer). Offered parameters to include border widths, ffffff-type codes for backgrounds, text colours etc. (as well as basic colour names for customers not well versed in such things).
When I made the original set of new layouts - see http://www.happychild.org.uk/ZZZZcommsite/outputs/ - I made a basic set (set 21) and modified a few parameters in various ways, to make the other sets.
Some of the response was positive, and some not (the latter I'd expected) and having seen the progs on Mitch's new "forum redesign" thread at http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php?topic=464.0 it really brought it home that whatever is done, simply isn't going to suit everybody.
Having given the situation quite a lot of thought, I've made a set of pages showing a "morph" from the original page I designed, to an approximation of how the comm site index page currently looks.  There are disparities (I had re-designed the layout of the top of the page as well as the layouts near the bottom, for consistency / clarity, and odd things like cell heights have been modified) but I think the morph sequence will clearly demonstrate that there are surprisingly few steps from the page I designed, to the comm site index as it currently stands.
If this degree of change can be achieved with only a few modifications, then *any* degree of change that any customer would want (or require) could be achieved just as simply if the relevant parameters were customizable according to individual choice.
I've gone through and modified the "originals" of set 21 - now at http://www.happychild.org.uk/ZZZZcommsite/newset02/morph00/ - to separate out all the individual parameters that needed to be changed to make the "morph" [I'll post up a list of these when I get chance, along with a list of the changes that were made].
The 10-step sequences of the morphs are as below - one sequence each for the varying width parameters.  Morphs 11 + 12 are "extras" to include a sample with thin lines and a sample with a coloured background, for comparison.
00 - 01 - 02 - 03 - 04 - 05 - 06 - 07 - 08 - 09 - 10 - 11 - 12 - full width
00 - 01 - 02 - 03 - 04 - 05 - 06 - 07 - 08 - 09 - 10 - 11 - 12 - all at 70% width
00 - 01 - 02 - 03 - 04 - 05 - 06 - 07 - 08 - 09 - 10 - 11 - 12 - mixed 70% width
It might be logical, also, if customers could also have a choice of buttons / button colours etc. as per the ones Mitch is currently designing.
Appreciate it might take a little time for the coding for optional parameters to be included, by whoever creates the css set-ups for the forums here [though I doubt as long as it took to strip out the css to make set 21 that I started with originally] - but having recently had some experience of coding a bbs, not a major hassle to add in 50 parameters instead of 5, or whatever - and if the coding could be done just this once to enable people to entirely-customise their personal view of the Community Site, it should never need to be done again
Regards,
Penny.

[#2]

(later)
It doesn't help that every link from these forums opens a new window
To easily see the variables on the morph, there's a need to open separately the three pages within the http://www.happychild.org.uk/ZZZZcommsite/newset02/morph00/ directory - in separate tabs (or windows) - and then on each morph00 in the address bar, change it manually to 01 then 02 etc., up to morph10, so that eventually you can use back/forwards to run in sequence from one to the other (there may be an easier way of doing this but if so I haven't discovered it).
Regarding the visual differences between the present version of the comm site forum index - http://www.happychild.org.uk/ZZZZcommsite/outputs/originalcommsiteindex/communitysiteindex001.htm - and morph10mixed - http://www.happychild.org.uk/ZZZZcommsite/newset02/morph10/new02mid70.htm , the closest approximation to how things look curently - these are largely:
(a) the font face
(b) the height of the "announcements" type box
(c) the appearance of the "small text" ( [css](?) small text will embolden, whereas Arial size="-2" won't, effectively).
(d) the streamlining of margins downwards
(e) the capitalization of titles on the forum boards
(apart from the modified design of the areas at the top and foot).
The identified range of "parameter options for change" would hopefully be sufficient to enable even (for example) a reversed-out site (ie with white on various colours) if someone should want that.  Making the changes doesn't take long (but making copies at every stage and identifying what interim changes had been made) has taken rather longer.  Some parameters were identified as being things that people might wish to change but weren't actually modified during the 01-10 morph.
If the 50-ish "option parameters" were available to any visitor they could probably entirely customise their view of the site in (say) 20-60 minutes, dependent on complexity of individual preference (and the range - or not - of original sample-views included, like the basic range at morph00-12 or something entirely different).
At present there are "many shades of white" (to identify separate parameters) but all these could be changed to just "ffffff" by an individual forum visitor [likewise the endless shades of grey could be changed to "e7e7e7" or similar]; large text font could be changed from Verdana to Courier to Comic Sans Ms (or whatever); small text from Arial likewise, page background colour to anything at all.
It may be thought better (perhaps by most people here?) to have a "standard" version of the comm site forums that everyone uses, but my instinct is that people would prefer in the final analysis to "feel at home here" rather than be constantly irked by whatever factor of the design.  And if some other factor (like large text, or monochrome, or whatever) becomes necessary in the future for the needs of particular customers, the relevant parameter-options can simply be added to the already-set-up range - so that everyone else has the option to use them also.
Setting the comm site forums up thoroughly for customization might seem a lot of work "now" - but it might help to avoid infinitely more work, in the future.
I've made a list of the possibly-ideal "parameter options for change" at http://www.happychild.org.uk/ZZZZcommsite/parameters/summary02.htm (prints to an A4 at 70%) - and an updated page at http://www.happychild.org.uk/ZZZZcommsite/parameters/summary03.htm with "changes made during the morph".
What I'm trying to illustrate (somewhat laboriously, and I'm sorry for that!) is that it took less than 20 tiny changes to get from this to this.  The samples are taken from different morph blocks but I trust they illustrate the degree of change that could be enabled for individual choice within this forum, with no aggravation for anyone concerned.
I'm going now
Penny.

[#3]

« on Today at 04:26 » 

« Reply #1 on Today at 16:29 »  
Well Done Ms.
That's a good 12 h shift you've put in on that one.   

[#4]

Quote from: Metalguru

Well Done Ms.

thank you   hope aspects of what's there will prove useful in determining however things end up visually here.

Quote from: Metalguru

That's a good 12 h shift you've put in on that one.

LOL  actually I slept during part of that 12 hours...

[#5]

I have to say that the basic design that you did is pretty good - not keen on the full width one, but that is just my own preference.
There is good clear separation between  the columns and rows which tends to lead the eyes a little better than the current layout.
Hopefully some of your ideas will get some space in the redesign, I like the new forums, but they don't feel as easy to read as the PlusNet forums. I think you're spot on with the comment that 'One size fits all' isn't going to work - hopefully there will be lots of options for individuals to customise their view on the forums

[#6]

This is now a third thread on the same same topic. Is it possible to combine them or at least put a block on adding to two of them so everything continues on one please?
Penny I'm mightily impressed with the amount of effort you have put in to your contribution but just to echo a strand of the other two threads - can anything be done to darken the pale pinky lilac text? If I understand you then it seems your ideal would be for all users to adjust lots of settings which presumably would include the text colours - but all of the many examples you have shown seem to retain the pale stuff, which for me (and the others who contributed to the other two threads) was the main problem we were hoping could be sorted. We just wanted to be able to read it all clearly without having to struggle with pale text and fiddle with monitors etc every time we visit this site.
How would the users choice of settings be stored - on the site or as a cookie? Would they be secure (ie would they stick without suddenly reverting for some reason)? If its to be as complicated as it sounds I would hate to spend even just several minutes setting it up and then keep finding the settings have reverted to defaults for some reason. By complicated I appreciate that Penny and Mitch and others have the skills and patience to produce multiple settings, but many others do not and would be put off by finding that they either have to spend time setting the site up for themselves (which isn't a normal part of web browsing) or finding that the site appearance suddenly changes because of some bug or glitch or they have inadvertently changed a variable without realising what they did; even worse would be for them to not know how to get it back to what they were familiar with.
Maybe it would be simpler if we could just be presented with a choice of designs and then have a poll to decide which is the most popular option, then make that what everyone sees. If anyone has such specific needs that they really can't use the site then I would imagine they would have similar problems using other sites generally so would probably already be equipped with the software and knowledge to change how they see it for themselves (at least some people on the other threads seemed to be able to do this so I suppose its possible).
I'm still not sure why we have to redesign things in the first place - the old forums were OK as they were weren't they? I'm a great believer in if it aint broke dont fix it. Sorry if this seems ungrateful to those who have put so much into trying to come up with another design.  I do appreciate the time people are giving up to try and help Plusnet get it right and if I had the same technical expertise I would love to help too but regrettably I don't. I just know that it really bugs me every time I look at this new site and have to double take all the pale bits. (Sorry!)

[#7]

Quote from: Gilby

can anything be done to darken the pale pinky lilac text?

x... brief reply, for lack of time, but the "pale pinky lilac" is simply a colour-shade-choice. So it's a "choice-parameter" that could easily be varied (either in the underlying set-up here or by an individual choice by a customer).
The "paleness factor" is also governed by whether a link is "emboldened" (or not). Default style here seems to be not-to-embolden-a-link (ie not to have it appear in heavy-text) but that too can be varied (so that link text would be "darker"/"heavier").

Quote from: Gilby

all of the many examples you have shown seem to retain the pale stuff

The "morph sequences" have (mainly) the pale-pinky-lilac because the changes were moving from a designed-original towards the "present colour balance" of the comm site as it stands - ie this (00fullw) to this (10midw).
The darkness (or otherwise) of the colours of the page design I put forward at 00-fullw would be as modify-able as anything else, if the forum member was allowed-individually to choose shades of colour.
The original set I made (before the morph) is here. Within that block there are various different colour combinations - eg set32 in black-and-gold (in three varying width options).
All the options at "sets 21-32" are in the heavy-borders layout (which I prefer but clearly many others here don't).
Sets 33 and 34 were added subsequently to give a couple of examples of how things would look with progressively-lighter borders, but you can also see other variables on how changing border and cellspacing parameters affects things, on the morph sequence 00 - 01 - 02, and again on the progressions at 10 - 11 - 12, where (11) an overall border was added (12) a slightly darker background was added and a cellspacing parameter modified to balance, for clarity.
I'll post up a list when I get time, of the actual sequence of changes that were made during the morph (trusting I noted down accurately what was changed at each stage) so that it might be clearer "what change" effects specific differences in appearance.

Quote from: Gilby

How would the users choice of settings be stored - on the site or as a cookie? Would they be secure (ie would they stick without suddenly reverting for some reason)?

They'd be stored (I assume) in the individual user profile - so setting up choices would be as simple as ticking-the-boxes like you would do to specify your present "forum preferences".
There would (as now) be a "default forum layout" (so the "default appearance" would need to be "voted on", I guess, given that there are quite a lot of differences in actual layout settings between the page I designed and the current comm site index page (most clearly illustrated by the visible differences between this [morphed layout] and this [comm site original], and other forum members are likely to design other basic-layouts) but after that, within the profile, you could have a set of "visual-appearance-preferences" (probably titled "my community site settings" or some such) where you could simply type in a six-character-code to change the background from ffffff (white) to e1e1e1 (a shade of grey) - the latter background shown in the 3-layout-options examples of set12 (post-morph).

Quote from: Gilby

If its to be as complicated as it sounds I would hate to spend even just several minutes setting it up and then keep finding the settings have reverted to defaults for some reason.

That shouldn't happen insofar as the other personalised-forum-settings haven't (in my experience) ever reverted to default.
"keeping a record" could be easily achieved - the page of "morph changes made" is relatively simple, and something similar (without the first column of ffffff-type items of original/default settings) could be created with boxes to infill - and an option could be included on the "my community site settings" page to tick a box to "e-mail me a copy of my settings" and/or "print a copy of my settings".
Basically you could choose whatever colours you wanted for the Community Site forums, and border widths and cellspacing widths likewise (to vary the widths of the lines between the boxes of the table). The same would then carry over into the settings for all the other types of pages on these forums.
Yes it's complicated! - but only until you see how it works (which I hope to some degree the examples I've provided in the various sets, will have demonstrated). I fully appreciate that very many people currently here will know already how to achieve such effects (so no offence intended by delineating all this) but for those who don't (yet) I hope the examples will have provided a few insights into how things are achieved.
The ffffff-type codes for the colours, incidentally, can be found on the "Internet Paintbox" - doesn't include all the possible codes, for reasons of space / download factors, but gives the codes for most possible shades of colour anyone's likely to want (the links from the big table with all the white boxes) as well as the codes for the 256 "safe colours" (down the bottom of that page) which themselves offer a wide range of possibilities.
If there is eventually a "default layout" for these forums that most people here are reasonably happy with, then it can be entirely-personalised (to whatever degree) to suit individual forum-users. Those who don't want to get involved with the complex stuff can leave the settings alone (much as I tend to do with Corel Draw, much of which is completely beyond me) but those who are confident with webpage-settings can easily achieve whatever appearance they want. And those in-the-middle (who'd just like thinner lines, or a couple of different colours) can just modify a few parameters, as they individually choose.
Probably the "parameters page" would need to include a few items such as:
(1) "embolden the links" or "underline the links" [I've emboldened all the links in this post aside from the Paintbox-link, to make them easier to see]
(2) (a) "full width tables on page" as per 10fullwidth
(b) mixed width tables on page (ie top + bottom tables full width, and the middle ones say 70% wide, as per 10mid70
(c) all tables indented (ie end-result 70% of total page width), as per 10all70
(or 2b and 2c could just as easily offer a width-variable, ie you could change the setting to 75 or 80 or whatever was wanted).
(3) perhaps options for buttons (reply/quote/whatever) types/size/colours, if feasible.
Changing any setting (other than maybe "buttons") on these forums is "dead easy" - you just key in a different code or width figure. It would take perhaps a week (maybe far less with the programming skills of the people who created the present forum-setup) to create a fully-customisable set of boards here. Then no more arguments or discussions about "how things look" - if anyone doesn't like it, just simply change the settings. And everybody equally capable of so doing, because of the way it's set up, with just a single column of boxes to fill in.
This post is somewhat longer than intended! but I hope I've clarified most of the points you raised

Being able to "personalise" the appearance of the Community Site forums will inevitably make this place "feel more like home".  Given the extraordinary level of complaints so far about how the pages look, it would seem (to me at least) that most people actually *care* about how these forums come across visually.  And given the almost-reluctance of certain people at the PN end, to modify the set-up they were originally very happy with, they care too.  On balance I believe that has been a good thing, because it has made the point that it needs to be "right", for everybody - and that there are too many entirely-disparate viewpoints for "a standard appearance".
So let's break the mould, and transport from a "one size fits all" mentality to a Community Site (designed for 200,000 customers, in the final analysis) that caters fully for the needs and preferences of every single individual here.
Regards,
Penny.
ps. I've made everything I've written above as accurate as I can in the limited time available, but if anyone notices a wrong-link or anything else that needs to be changed/clarified, please PM me so I can edit as required   have to be elsewhere right now but will get back here when I can.

[#8]

Thanks Penny - I hesitate to ask anything else for fear you will take up another 3 hours of your day making such a full reply.
I've spent some time looking at all the links you gave. Frankly I would be happy with any of them if only they didnt have pale colour text. Most have either pale lilac or pale orange and some have pale brown (probably what you refer to as 'gold'). I saw a few had some of the pale text replaced by black or dark green - both of these are instantly clearer but even with these you have left every other heading in a pale colour.
Unless there is some fresh development to comment on I won't keep reiterating my request for the pale bits to be darkened - it must be maddening for you and for everyone else to keep seeing me bang on about it. I'll just keep an eye on this forum (if I can keep up with what thread this topic keeps spreading to!), vote if there is any opportunity for us all to choose, and just go with whatever the final decision is.
Thanks anyway for your dedication and community spirit - keep up the good work!

[#9]

Quote from: Gilby

Thanks Penny - I hesitate to ask anything else for fear you will take up another 3 hours of your day making such a full reply.

LOL

Quote from: Gilby

if I can keep up with what thread this topic keeps spreading to!

Quote from: Gilby

This is now a third thread on the same same topic. Is it possible to combine them or at least put a block on adding to two of them so everything continues on one please?

Just an afterthought on this (which I'd drafted just before you posted again )
(1) thread by Mitch about the improvements / additional features he is currently designing - forum redesign
(2) thread about what should appear where, in terms of ease of navigation within the Comm Site forums (and to other parts of the Comm Site) - Link to Home Page
(3) thread about Smileys
(4) thread about Icons
(5) this thread about possibly customising these forums
(6) "colours are terrible" (now redirected by Kelly's last post to (1), above
(7) "Forum Style" - not recently posted in and now redirected to this list
. . . . and quite a few other threads on the Ideas board about specific aspects of how things work / interconnect / visually appear, within these forums. I don't (actually) think it would serve any significant purpose to amalgamate everything - more convenient perhaps but it would make it very difficult to have separate conversations about the various different aspects if they weren't separated by thread at least to some degree.
Just my view - and I guess at the end of the day it is the mods who will make the decisions.

Quote from: Gilby

I won't keep reiterating my request for the pale bits to be darkened

I'll knock up a couple of "darker options" for you to look at [shouldn't be more than 20m, barring any non-Internet calls on my time ]
Regards,
Penny.

[#10]

Quote from: Penny

I'll knock up a couple of "darker options" for you to look at [shouldn't be more than 20m, barring any non-Internet calls on my time ]

Well I hadn't taken into account the need to create new folders, and open up the FTP program, and grab another cup of coffee - let alone posting back here . . .
I've changed the "gold" (b8a283) on set 32 to "dark blue/purple" (400040) however it comes out much like black on my monitor.  Result at test01 (all three widths as previously). For comparison I've done the same on the green set - set 29 (ie same colour change to the gold) giving test02.
Any other factor (like thinner borders, or different text font, or alterations to background colours) is equally variable - and infinitely more swiftly, if it was just a case of forum members entering a colour-code in a box, to make their own choices individually.
Regards,
Penny.

[#11]

Thanks Penny - test01 & test02 are both the clearest of all your prodigous output. Of the two, test02 would get my vote. Test01 seems to have all headings black for me too (isn't there a shade of purple in between the pasty lilac and the blackish one?) so the alternating green and 'black' headings of test02 look better, I think. I don't object to coloured text at all, it helps make a page more attractive, but for me it always needs to be a darker shade of whichever colour it is in order to be clear.
And for what its worth I think my vote would be for the 70% width body text with full width header.
Thanks for your patience and perspiration!

[#12]

(later)
Whilst driving home I had a few misgivings about test02 - mainly because it doesn't have the colour balance of a page I would have chosen to create (green-white-black) even though it satisfied the criteria of "darker text".
So in an odd half hour I've knocked up a few other options
test03 - dark green text (006432) replaced with black (010101) and pale green background (373f39) changed to pale-ish grey (efefef).
It then struck me that it would be constructive to see what
morph 10 (nearest approximation of the current forum index page appearance), morph 11 (same with thin borders) and morph 12 (page background darkened) would look like if the purple text (9f75af) was changed to black (020202).
Results - interesting - at test04, test05 and test06.
Taking this to the extreme, I then changed the purple background colour (9f75ae) on the header blocks to black (020000).
Results at test07, test08 and test09.
I think that's probably enough examples   and hope maybe it serves to demonstrate what's possible with minimal effort.

Quote from: Gilby

Thanks Penny - test01 & test02 are both the clearest

Yes I agree entirely, but that clarity could be added to any of the previous examples by darkening the text (in literally a 30-second operation), to whatever colour/shade was required.
Re the purple/blue, I'd chosen at random what looked like "midnight blue" from a colour chart in the pagebuilding program (though 400040 means it should logically be a shade of purple) but it looked vastly different on screen (people's monitors do vary greatly, though, and shades on my current monitor are infinitely darker than they were on my last).
But yes, "any shade" is possible - another reason for requesting (endlessly) that forum members be given the individual choice to decide what suits them, by a customise-your-pageview-here facility.
To summarise - finally! for if I haven't made the case for enabling customization of these forums, by now, then it's unlikely I'm going to - all the sets made so far are at
http://www.happychild.org.uk/ZZZZcommsite/ , and previous posts related to this topic started at http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php?topic=367.msg3614#msg3614 . Ironically that thread was "left hand menus - will they return" and it's only now - test10 - that I've had chance to mock up a "logged-in page" which shows at the top, the greyer links for all the things people might want to access, like "my account", "view my usage", "service status" (etc.). It's a scruffy second-line-of-links but these are just sample possible wordings (without working links), to cover some of the items that might previously have been in "left hand menus".
And that's it from me [really have other stuff that I must go and do, for the major part of the next few weeks] . . . . the final item I said I'd do, was a summary of the tiny changes that made the morph from 00 to 10 possible - now on line at http://www.happychild.org.uk/ZZZZcommsite/parameters/summary04.htm - the only actual "changes" were the bits in bold text, the rest is just by way of explanation.
Regards,
Penny.

[#13]

Test03/04/05/06 are all definitely the best yet for me. I think I prefer all of them in the 'mid70' flavour. If I had to choose between these 4 sets I would probably go for 04 - it seems to involve the least amount of change necessary to make the page clear which was all I was hoping for (ie for the pale text to be made darker). If others want lines and coloured backgrounds and stripes I'm really not bothered - I just want to be able to read whats there!
Thanks very much again Penny - you are a star.

[#14]

Quote from: Gilby

Thanks very much again Penny

You're welcome   I just wanted to show (if possible) how easy it would be to enable the types of changes that people ask for individually, from one single default layout.
A few other - but related - points now on the thread at http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php?topic=464.msg6197#msg6197 .

Regards,
Penny.

[#15]

Any news yet?