Discussion Thread for new Community Forum Structure

[#1]

Make a couple of posts over there @SharpeyUK - there is some work going on in the background and offers of help will be welcomed?
Maurice

[#2]

For those who're following the saga of the forum restructuring, here's the situation…
Plusnet earlier today got back to us after the meeting held a few days ago. Whilst they did, credit where credit is due, deliver what the moderators had been waiting for from them, they also made the infuriating move of overruling the moderators about something – something they had themselves approved a few weeks ago. The moderators had spent a long time agreeing on the item in question before passing it over for Plusnet's approval, so when Plusnet did finally approve it (unsurprisingly, the approval process took far too long) I think it was reasonable to expect that the item was finalised. But apparently not, because Plusnet have just decided that actually they'd like to change things around – without an iota of consultation.
So, I've given up. As per my ultimatum from six days ago, I'm abandoning all involvement with the forum reorganisation, effective immediately. I said that Plusnet had to ‘work with us properly’ in order for me to continue helping with the reorganisation, but Plusnet aren't working with us, they're just telling us what they're going to do – and even that's after an inordinate amount of procrastination. I've spent a lot of time on the job of restructuring the forums, both in terms of practical tasks and mental consideration of how we could be doing things differently (i.e. better). Helping with it has actually, in real terms, cost me money because the time I've spent attending to it has been time I would have otherwise spent earning some money from home using eBay (my main source of income until the job market improves). So to be demonstrated this complete lack of respect is galling, and I'm fed up with it.
One final thing I'd like to point out, by the way, is that I'm not doing this in a throwing-teddies-out-of-pram proving-a-point kind of way. I'm doing this because I am genuinely aggrieved by Plusnet's lack of respect for my and the other moderators' hard work; because I no longer have any inclination to assist with such a frustrating process.

[#3]

I am sorry to say that I am not surprised that PlusNet has done that, but I am surprised that PlusNet has not bow down to there lord and master BT and set up a forum that tracks you from here to kingduk too and back.

[#4]

Sorry to hear what you have said Thomas but thanks for all the hard work you and the other mods have done on the restructuring.  Are we permitted to know anything about the problem?  

[#5]

Quote from: jelv

I'm rather beginning to think that Liam's Plusnetters wasn't such a bad idea!

Hmm... This is looking more and more like the way we need to go. Plusnet used to make a big thing about the forums being largely independent, run by the users for the users. Now it looks like they are turning in to the same type of control freaks as those that run the BT forums them selves.

[#6]

Quote from: artmo

Sorry to hear what you have said Thomas but thanks for all the hard work you and the other mods have done on the restructuring.  Are we permitted to know anything about the problem?

Thanks artmo. I don't really know how the other moderators feel about me elucidating on the issue, I just by default decided to not do so in order to avoid ruffling any more feathers than I probably already am.

[#7]

This is bad news indeed. I would very much like to know the source of the disagreement (as, I suppose, would others).
I have had a growing sense of lack of commitment to this  forum by Plusnet ever since James left. I know that staff are constantly busy, but why hasn't anyone been employed to take this vacancy up?Nobody seems to have responsibility any more - there is no 'named person' so to speak.
I do not get the impression that they want the forum to close, but rather to handle it in a different way.  If this is the case then they should own up and be willing to explain how they see this developing in the future. The forum doesn't seem like it was when it first came into being.
Personally, I am very sad about this news as I so much value the forum, having received lots of advice in the past, and enjoyed the camaraderie. 
Please, Plusnet - this is a most valuable resource - support your moderators and your forum.

[#8]

When I was a moderator here, as you know I spent a bit of time pushing this issue.. seems now that it is the straw that broke the camels back.
I got the distinct impression that the forum was way down on the bottom of the list of priorities way back then, despite assurances that it was being looked at.
This forum as others have said is the lifeblood of the community in general, and is run by the moderators in association with the community. My gut feeling is that BT want to sanitise and put their stamp on it, and it's going to take a lot to disprove that theory IMO
/coat

[#9]

We've no intention of sanitising anything!
I'm sorry that you feel so strongly about this Thomas. Agreed, we did make some changes to the layout, and whilst we were aware that it might not go down too well, we'd kinda hoped you guys were going to be accepting
When we sat down and looked at the proposal we still thought that there was too much vertical space. this was behind our decision to amalgamate some of the boards and shorten the descriptions.
I'm concerned by some of the other views cited here though. We cerrainly don't want to neglect the forums, they are the life blood of the Community!

[#10]

Quote from: Bob

I'm sorry that you feel so strongly about this Thomas. Agreed, we did make some changes to the layout, and whilst we were aware that it might not go down too well, we'd kinda hoped you guys were going to be accepting

If you discuss the changes with us, make it sound like we have an option in all this: we might accept.
If you make changes behind our backs about which we have no say, after we've spent a long time finalising things: no chance.
The moderators should be the ambassadors for the community. By treating us with minimal respect, you're treating the community with minimal respect.
(By ‘you’ I mean Plusnet by the way – no ire is directed at you personally Bob.)

[#11]

A suggestion:
These are supposed to be our (the users) forums.
Put up the two proposals and let us vote on them.

[#12]

Good idea jelv.  We haven't seen the proposals yet so it will give us a chance to do so.  It will also prevent complaints once a proposal is accepted from anyone not liking it.

[#13]

Quote from: Bob

When we sat down and looked at the proposal we still thought that there was too much vertical space. this was behind our decision to amalgamate some of the boards and shorten the descriptions.

This is one of the things that really annoys me.
It has apparently been decided that sub-forums are not going to be used because they take up too much space at the top of the main forum and you have to scroll down to see the posts in the main forum. There's two reasons for this:
[1] The number of sub-forums
[2] How much space each sub-forum takes
Take a look at the forums of the developers of this forum software: http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php They manage to fit far more sub-forums in to the same vertical space.
Plusnet choose to design a layout that takes loads of vertical space for each row, then complain that it takes too much vertical space.
The same thing applies to the main index page. On my screen Plusnet get 5 and a bit forums before it's off the bottom of the screen, Simple Machines get 10 and a bit (including the Language Specific Support which has loads of sub-forums).
Jeez! Blame the mods for wanting too many forums when it's their own crap design that's the problem.
I'd suggest that Plusnet ought to look at the forum design before moaning about how many forums and how long the descriptions are, but I know if they did they'd solemnly promise on pain of death that they'd have something to show us in 3 weeks time and a year later we'd still be waiting.

[#14]

Jelv - that link is great - thanks so much for posting it. There is quite a bit there that might be useful to me in my forum venture.
This is the great thing about this forum - so many little helpful and interesting things arise out of discussions.
Now, with regards to the forum structure I really don't understand why there is so much fuss and palaver.
The simplemachines one seems very straightforward to me (or am I being over-simplistic?).
As long as the sub-forums go I will be content - I am sure that I miss stuff because I get fed up of trawling through them.

[#15]

Quote from: jelv

Put up the two proposals and let us vote on them.

I suppose there's always a chance that the community might even like PN's proposal over the one decided on by the moderators, although I must say that PN's ideas do seem a bit odd. Either way though, the moderators always intended to show the community a mock-up to allow any comments to be collected (indeed, I began preparing it weeks ago before being delayed by PN…) and I'm sure that'll still take place.

Quote from: jelv

It has apparently been decided that sub-forums are not going to be used because they take up too much space at the top of the main forum and you have to scroll down to see the posts in the main forum.

Actually, that's not so much the issue. As I understand it, the main reason for abolishing sub-forums is to generally make the forums simpler for people to use, in consideration of complaints such as poppy's above. (I say ‘as I understand it’ as I think there had been a consensus about abolishing sub-forums before I returned to moderating.) We've made a number of changes to the boards and their purposes too in our restructuring proposal; it isn't merely a case of reshuffling what we've already got… which is again with the aim of simplicity in mind, and with a particular emphasis on clarity too. (Clarity in the sense of making it clearer which board to use, when currently there could be several different boards that might apply to one's problem.)

Quote from: jelv

Take a look at the forums of the developers of this forum software: http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php They manage to fit far more sub-forums in to the same vertical space.

I noticed this too when fiddling around with a generic installation Barry had kindly provided for the mods to use before PN had handed over the keys to their beta. I do believe that PN once had aspirations to redesign the forum skin to coincide with the forum restructuring, but it eventually got dropped as everybody realised that if we waited for that we'd be waiting forever, so the restructuring has proceeded with no design changes. (Well, one small change actually, but it unfortunately won't solve the masses-of-empty-space issue at all.)
Actually… hmm. Let me go back to this:

Quote from: Bob

When we sat down and looked at the proposal we still thought that there was too much vertical space. this was behind our decision to amalgamate some of the boards and shorten the descriptions.

I've just twigged something: shortening the descriptions will have absolutely no effect on the amount of vertical space used whatsoever – take a look at the Business Users' Forum to see what I mean.