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Society and cowerdice

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Society and cowerdice

I am very angry tonight. The headlines are of a robbery where the robbers shot one policewoman dead and injured another. Our police are generally unarmed!!! I know the police in most other countries are armed but I do not want this for the UK. Instead I would like us to bring back hanging specifically for the use of a a firearm murder against a non-weapon carrying person! Even the most viscious criminals in UK's history had a 'code of honour'
/rant over

Sorry - I know emotions run high immediately after such events and I have 'adjusted' for that but I really can not imagine the Krays ever doing this kind of thing. Something needs toi be re-adjusted - a message needs to go out. End of...
24 REPLIES
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Society and cowerdice

Hi,

I too am angry. Callous and cowardly acts such as this in our society are becoming all too common place.

Whilst the details of this particular incident are still a bit sketchy, there is a ring of visciousnes about it which is very worrying.

I think that the days where criminals had any sort of "code of honour" are long since gone.

Another sad day for the UK.
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Society and cowerdice

We often have the capital punishment debate (we bein myself, my partner and frined not PlusNet :lol: ) and I can'r decide on which side of the fence I stand.

I think if it were ever put to any referendum it would be impossible to have a 'fair' vote.

If any of the rest of the population is anyhting like myself (and I suspect they are) then the outcome of the vote would very much depend on when it was cast.


Take this with the police or indeed the soham murders, if you'd asken me if I wanted to bring back the death penalty when huntley was convicted i'd know which way my vote had been cast but then on other days during the debate my opinion has swung either way.


It's a terrible thing for a policeman or woman to loose their life on duty but how will killing someone else make this better? You have to learn to seperate emotion and justice. If it was my friend or family member who'd died then maybe it'd feel different but then maybe not, when is taking another humans life ever right?
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Society and cowerdice

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.........when is taking another humans life ever right?


If just one innocent person is executed by the state then surly that would be unforgivable - in the past when there was capital punishment there had been numerous cases where an innocent person was hanged and was later found to be innocent.

As Mark said, details are sketchy and as I understand it, the two police woman just chanced upon the robbery. So the debate about wearing full body armour at all times must continue.

I condemn the shooting and I hope that the true killers are caught and locked away for the rest of their life.
LiamM
Grafter
Posts: 5,636
Registered: 12-08-2007

Society and cowerdice

I agree with Rich on the timing thing entirely.

But I think prisons these days are too much like holiday camps. My mother used to be a Prison Govenor and the things she used to tell me about all the stuff they get. That's not punishment. If I was homeless, I'd go commit a crime to get a roof over my head in her majesty's company.

I don't know what this country is coming to to be honest, and in some ways I'm glad I won't be here to see what is happening in, say, 100 years time. I just cannot believe what could possibly motivate an individual to carry out such crimes. It's simply insane.
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Society and cowerdice

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If I was homeless, I'd go commit a crime to get a roof over my head in her majesty's company.



People do, my Mother works as a Phyciatric nurse who deals with drug/alcohol abuse, many of these people are also homeless. In towns and cities around here it's a regular occurence for crimes to be committed over the winter/xmas period simply to get inside.

There a kind of system to it, they realise if they do something like break a shop window or shoplift then they'll only be inside for a few nights at their local police station (unless they are regualr shoplifters). IF they do this over xmas they get xmas dinners of a sort and a heated cell. It's common practice around here as a way for the desperate of getting off the streets. Unfortunately in my old hometown (mansfield) the norm is to insult a police officer. As they are "under the influence" they cannot be interviewed/processed until the morning when they are "told off" and released.

They have a very simple yet effective may of "working the system"
This type of criminal invariably needs help rathr than punishment and are of course completely uncomparible to the type of person that would end another humans life.
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Society and cowerdice

From what I gather the police woman that has died was a mother of three and had two step children. She was murdered on her daughters 4th birthday. I find all murders abhorrant and believe that capital punishment should be reinstated for this crime. There is less likelyhood of a miscarriage of justice now because of the advances in science etc. But it is time the human rights of victims were put at the forefront rather than the human rights of the convicted murderers. This is not a kneejerk arguement but a view I have long held.
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Society and cowerdice

I wonder how you'd feel if the boot was on the other foot? Maybe someone you know was involved? People can be driven to stragne things or have something wrong in the head which makes it all the easier.

Also where is the line drawn? In my mind killing someone whilst drunk at the wheel is murder and there is legal precedent for it being tried as such. Maybe you know someone who has driven while drunk? Maybe you yourself have I don't know (no offence intended this is purely for the purpose of debate) in that case how is it different? Should they be killed also? THey have made a decision the end result of which is the loss of innocent life. MAybey thaty haven't pulled a trgiier but it's still cause ->effect , action -> consequence. Different?

Again it comes down to an eye for an eye and soon the whole world will be blind.

Like I said in my earlier post sometimes I have to agree with you but I think that's more to do with emotion rather than law or justice.


Fair enough these people have deprived a people of a wife/mother/daughter/cousin etc but is it then right for us to effect another group of people in the same way by killing another person?
when does killing become right? When does it turn form murder to justice? Who has the right to decide at what point it changes?


Where is the line drawn? What about the grey areas? What about the mentally ill?

I don't think any human being has the right to make that decision.
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Society and cowerdice

My feelings are that the person who has murdered has taken that decision and thencarried out that crime, they are a person reponsible for thier own actions. They do not think of their own families or friends when the crime is comitted, any more then they think about their victims families. Murder in my view is where a conscious decision is made to take anothers life, the perpetrator must know that the consequences of their actions will have an equally powerful reaction.
Drink driving I think is totally irresponsible and the law should be changed, as it is in some countries, so that there is NO dirnking and driving allowed. At least those doing so will then know they are breaking the law rather than sailing too close to it.
I do not consider that capital punishment is correct for all killing but I belive it is certainly right for premeditated crimes like murder. For then the action is already thought out.
Again I still believe that not enough is done for the human rights of victims and thier families and too much emphasis is placed on the rights of the criminal.
I do have personal experiance of a family member killing someone and have told them that their sentance of four years ws far too lenient and should have been 25 years with no remission. That person was a nephew (very close) and the victim a baby. As a result my mother had a massive stroke and was unable to move or speak for 5 years before her death.
I just get annoyed over any violence and can never understand why some people want or have to hurt others. We are all here to get along together and live as full a life as possible with no interferance from or to others.
I believe in One God but am not a religious fanatic or fundemendalist, I just believe in love and happiness. Maybe I am too naive for my 59 years.
Sorry to carry on but sometimes one has to say these things sometimes without lots af arguements all around.
Community Veteran
Posts: 5,878
Registered: 04-04-2007

Society and cowerdice

I personally believe we should have capital punishment back, but it should onyl be used in the most exterme cases and where the proof against the offendender is pretty absolute.

On a side note, one thing that annoyed me recently - the govenment wanting police to be able to imprision people for upto 90 days without trial so they can get more evidence. I think this is barbaric and people shouldnt be held unnecessarily without trial or even charges. They say these cases would be thrown out of court due to not being allowed phone tapping evidence etc. Fair enough, but surely this would suggest the Justice system is flawed and outdated rather than just allowing the police to bypass it.

Sorry for bringing this thread a little off topic, but I thought it was kind of relevent. I didn't intend to detract from a currently very upsetting occurence.
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Society and cowerdice

I think that as far as homeless people are concerned, many of them are homless not by choice. I think it is only right that a so called civilised society should not have homeless, there are plenty of old abandoned buildings that could be converted to some sort of accomodation. These could be made available to the homeless. There may be an arguement over cost but it would surely be better to put money into this sort of thing, which would help the economy, rather than the cost of prosecution, policing and investigation into those crimes of the homeless, except drug related which is another issue.
The moneyspent on a useless Iraq invasion would have been better spent on our own country. Sometimes charity must begin at home.
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Society and cowerdice

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I personally believe we should have capital punishment back, but it should onyl be used in the most exterme cases and where the proof against the offendender is pretty absolute.


But there are still questions to where you draw the line, 18 years of age? What about Derek Bentley who was 18 but had a mental age of just 11 - He was hung for a crime he never committed But the murderer served just 10 years and walked because he was only 16. Bentley was guilty for saying "Let him have it, Chris". but no one knows exactly what he meant by that or ever will know now. Did he mean give him the gun - or was he saying shoot him?
45 years later Bentley was pardoned. But that does not justify the fact that the British justice system did not do the right thing that time and may make another mistake again if hanging was brought back, even with hard on evidence.

Mahmood Mattan? Hung for supposedly looking like someone else by a racist police force?

Also what do you class as a hanging offence?

Tony Martin? Shot two burglars, killing one - should he have been hung?
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Society and cowerdice

Nah, he should have not gone to prison for it!! simple
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Society and cowerdice

I agree, You should be aloud to protect whats yours with any force necessary.

But the laws say you can not attack a burglar unless they attack you first - So what do you do allow them to come into your home and take what you have worked for - Show them where all the valuables are - offer them a brew maybe?
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Society and cowerdice

Its stupid really isnt it.

I remember YEARS back, my dad had a problem with kids running through our garden, ruining the place as a shortcut to school, now we had a VERY protective cocker spaniel, stupid as hell, but still protective, we asked the cops, what happens if she bites one of the kids in garden. Simple answer, if we dont set her onto the kid ie sickem!! there is nothing that can be done against the dog.

So, why not then, can we not do the same thing, that person is tresspassing, and we should be able to use whatever amount of force needed to remove that person from the property, and maybe a little bit extra to remind them not to come back!!! :twisted: :twisted:


Good news though, is that currently they have 5 people in custody concerning this sad and tragic even!