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More on LInux v Windows

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More on LInux v Windows

Hello,

I read your reply with interest and I largely agree with most or almost all of the points you made. As I said before I'm not against Linux in anyway shape or form, its definately an extremely good OS with many very original features and functions that MS windows or MS products dont have but it was the technical language that I found very hard to get to grips with. Yes! Linux is a very big jump for people like me and I have no shame in admitting that. I found problem solving on linux to be extremely slow and even more difficult I'm sure due to the terminology. That said I often used to get very p***d off with MS windows & MS products too as they are written from an American mindset and so are often more complicated & the terminology far more flowery than is needed. (yeh say it in ten words when 3 will do, American's for you dont you just love them!!?? or not!!!!).

Yes! Linux must be very good as most of the web servers out there which form the back bone of the internet itself (mostly running apache I believe?) are using some flavour of linux.

Of course linux & MS Windows are so different and the reasons for this are quite clear, the mindset & cultures from which they come are so completely different. In one uncle Bill & co wanted world domination with MS and have almost succeeded (as money was the main driving force) but linux comes from a different culture & mindset where profit and world domination are not the driving force (hence public domain software movement).

**Actually I really like some of the Window managers that are freely available for linux thats one of the joys of linux OS. You can have many many different interfaces as you like, thats very nice indeed. Where as, as soon as I installed XP I had to turn off the tacky luna interface which really is micky mouse I have to agree (Yack a roony hate it,yack!!).

**Ya but I got WMP10 working after all!! Ha!!

Ivan
19 REPLIES
fraserc
Grafter
Posts: 38
Registered: 06-04-2007

LInux is not so daunting!

Cytek,

I suggest you try a recent distriution of almost any Linux distribution (preferably SuSE - it's the one I know best). For desktop use they work just about 'out of the box'. One proviso is that if you have very recent hardware you may have some problems. More and more hardware manufacturers are releasing linux drivers almost as soon (if not at the same time) as they go to market but there are still some that don't (or won't!) and we have to wait for volunteers to develop them.

Other than that installation is painless (and much, much better than windoze - you get far more choice on what is installed and where). Other operating systems are recognised and left untouched unless you specify otherwise (and, in the case of windoze, the disk partition is accessible from the linux system, instead of being totally ignored by as , guess who ignores all other peoples' operating systems?).

If you are reluctant to b*%$$er about with your system, and who can blame you?, try one of the live distributions They run from the CD and leave your disk and system untouched - I recommend Knoppix, regularly given away with a number of PC magazines. . There are performance considerations, of course. {program loading from a CD can never be as quick as from a disk. But apart from that you'll see your system fly!

Incidentally, did anyone see the 'Gadget Show' on some digital channel last night. A slot on Open Source and a huge plug for SuSE, OpenOffice, Firefox and Thunderbird!
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Linux

Hi,

Nop!! I completely disagree with you sorry!! OK at a simple desktop level most Linux distributions are fine if all you want to do is install it and use it. However, if you want to do any serious tweaking, more advanced stuff the linux technical language is for many people so far removed from anything remotely like Microsoft then you'll struggle. I did and I'm no novice user ( trained Windows 2000 MCSE). I also worked for an American electronics company that based its whole product range on a linux kernal and they continually had problems recruiting staff with even a good basic linux knowledge.

**Getting support on techical problems is another area fraute with difficulty.

**Finding major applications that are well written and also user friendly that run on Linux also was very off putting.

**Also file formats & compatibility issues put the nail in the coffin for me with Linux. However, linux still gets my respect as its clearly a very good OS of that I have no doubte but I just found it very hard to feel comfortable with in the end and that matters.

**The problem isnt Linux itself its the technical terminology used to describe commands or concepts and if your not brought up on Unix or linux its far from easy and I still stick by this. Although some versions might be easier than others I can accept that.

**Over the years I've observed how linux has become more & more like MS Windows with features it didnt have before like auto-detect devices and drives etc when installing.

Ivan
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Re: Linux

Quote
Hi,

Nop!! I completely disagree with you sorry!! OK at a simple desktop level most Linux distributions are fine if all you want to do is install it and use it. However, if you want to do any serious tweaking, more advanced stuff the linux technical language is for many people so far removed from anything remotely like Microsoft then you'll struggle. I did and I'm no novice user ( trained Windows 2000 MCSE). I also worked for an American electronics company that based its whole product range on a linux kernal and they continually had problems recruiting staff with even a good basic linux knowledge.

**Getting support on techical problems is another area fraute with difficulty.

**Finding major applications that are well written and also user friendly that run on Linux also was very off putting.

**Also file formats & compatibility issues put the nail in the coffin for me with Linux. However, linux still gets my respect as its clearly a very good OS of that I have no doubte but I just found it very hard to feel comfortable with in the end and that matters.

**The problem isnt Linux itself its the technical terminology used to describe commands or concepts and if your not brought up on Unix or linux its far from easy and I still stick by this. Although some versions might be easier than others I can accept that.

**Over the years I've observed how linux has become more & more like MS Windows with features it didnt have before like auto-detect devices and drives etc when installing.

Ivan


This is of course because most people are used to MS OS's and anything that isn't wrapped in thre layers of user friendly interfaces people complain to confusing. This is of course down to MS marketing and hats of to them. However if everyone was brought up on Linux then MS windows would just seem clumsy, uncustomizable, bloated, slow and expensive.
People seem all too quick to think that if something is different to what they're used to then it's too complicated.
I've worked with people that have spent a number of years programing on the Unix/Linux platform and they do nothing but complain about the Windows interface, how so many settings are hidden away. Microsoft gives you GUI's to fiddle with some settings, but makes no mention of lots more.
I mean no offense here, but it doesn't suprise me that someone that has Windows 2000 MCSE training will be biased towards (or more at home with) Windows.

That said, I do agree with some of what you said. Also the linux install, while much more customizable is also much more cluttered with options that a 1st time installer will probably not understand. Using a typical install option would overcome this, but then it negates the whole arguement of having choice about what is installed. And I believe the only reason that Windows can't see other operating systems is due to the file system format they use. If you install Linux on a FAT32 partition (ok, I don't know why you'd want to normally) I think windows would be able to read it fine. So if Microsoft decided their new Windows OS would use a totally new file system, not based on an existing one, I doubt Linux would be able to read that. The only reason it can read Windows stuff is because it understands FAT32 (and I believe NTFS).

Also installing some 3rd party software can be complicated or at least a little long winded. This is not such a problem in Windows (unless you're trying to install WMP10 eh? Wink ), as it's pretty much reduced to double-clicking an icon and following on-screen prompts.

I think for Linux to become really widely accepted it is going to have to become more like Windows, and in doing so will probably lose some of the things that Linux users like about it so much.

As it stands Linux is quite abig jump from Windows, which while quite possibly better, will make it harder for the majority of users to come to grips with.

Sorry, I think I went off topic a little there and went more into a Linux vs. Windows arguement.
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Gentoo linux

I have heard rumours on linux O's from being better than windows for gaming and about everything else. So taking the dive I have installed Gentoo with such fun on the install itself Smiley. From my experience of this wonderful system gaming and general use has never been better, infact Linux performs a hell of a lot quicker for gaming and surfing, such as pings in Quake 3 on windows using maxpackets 100 are around 50, using a 2meg 20:1 contentio force 9 homeworker pro. With Linux Gentoo pinging around 33 with the same quake 3 settings which is very good I think, surfing is a dream with Firefox displaying pages faster and more stable on a default install. Another bonus is the lack of updates as we all do on the windows platform.

Downside is the headache of installing and sorting out problems on install but once the beauty is installed and configured properly its very hard to beat.


regards...
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LInux is not so daunting!

don't you believe it, linux has just as many patches released if not more than windows

Darren
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LInux is not so daunting!

Also I believe Firefox has problem with ActiveX content as well as flash, although I'll admitt to not having tried it myself.

Quake3 runs better on linux huh?
Know of any other out of date games that I could run on Linux, have they done a port of Pong yet? how does it run? What about Space Invaders, what sort frame rate difference do you notice on that?

Seriously, how does Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory run?
Warcraft III?
World Of Warcraft?
Everquest II? (OK, not that you'd really want to)
Rome: Total War?
Football Manager 2005?
Fifa 2005? (Or Pro Evolution Soccer 4?)
How abgout Half-Life 2? How does Linux cope with Steam?
Since you mentioned Quake 3, how about Doom 3?
Big framerate improvement in Far Cry?
Warhammer 40K: Dawn Of War?

I think you catch my drift.
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LInux is not so daunting!

Most of those games you can run through wine with no issues (so long as you have the technical ability to set it up). Linux was never designed as a gaming platform, hence there is limited availability for it at the moment, but the good thing is that commercial gaming companies now, as well as ATI, and Nvidia, are recognising that last year, PC's shipped with linux as a standard OS are increasing, thus are putting the effort in to develop more applicatins for linux.

I come from a MCSE 2000 and 2003 background. This includes everything to do with the operating system, vb, sql and exchange. Until 6 months ago, I was microsoft through and through. The OS is very good at doing what it was designed to do: To be simple to install, easy to use, and provide a good solid working structure straight out of the box with minimal setup. It does this with top marks. I still like Windows for a server platform, and exchange 2003, AD 2003 with XML api's work extremely well for a corporate environment.

However, as MS further develop their systems, they are getting further away from a computer setup which falls in line with what I want. Windows XP is great, but is not for me. SP2 has uncertain feelings with a lot of people globally, which for a major upgrade, shouldnt give out this feeling. Technically, it is a new version of windows as the release change on files could probably be described as a new release, because that much is changed after installing sp2.

With this in mind, and with charges which mr end user has to pay, the unethical views of the EU about software patent licences, the way MS want you to think the way they are thinking and not be an independent thinker, and the lack of logging on the damn operating system led me to one thing .... linux.

After using the system, I feel like I can now get out of my computer what I want to do. I know EXACTLY what is going on with the system, instead of clicking on "next", and wondering "Should I have done that?". I can log anything I want, from debugging ftp access, to ldap child permission rights on samba syncronised objects to an ldap database.

And what about updates on linux - yes there are a lot of them, you are encouraged to update all the time. You also dont need to reboot your computer after you have updated like microsoft systems ask you to do.

And the window manager which you get with Windows called explorer.exe. What about if you wanted to change it completely because you got sick and tired of explorer.exe. Well, you are a bit stuck on Windows, as explorer.exe is the core part of the GUI, as well as integrated into every other part of windows. If explorer gets shafted, then so does your system. As linux is not a GUI based system - even though you can run x11-xorg on there, you are quite flexible to run whatever you want. Whether this is KDE, Gnome, Fluxbox, E17, XFCE, or a whole host of other managers out there. You are not reliant on one executeable.

Ok, so linux does have a few problems with applications crashing sometimes, which is a bad thing, as it is on most other operating systems. But at least the error messages tell me exatcly what the problem is, instead of giving me an Error: 1210017 occured.


Windows does what it is supposed to do, and does it well, and MS are successful, and give lots of money to other companies to develop applications for its system. This lies sharply in the spine of linux users, as linux is based on a free environment, and they cant throw money at things like microsoft can. But there are a lot of people out there who do not work for MS who have a given skill, which they apply to linux and generate a community for people who choose to use linux as it fits their computer needs. Why pay 200 quid for an operating system to run an ftp server, when i an download one for free and use that - and its more secure ?

Linux is a hard wall to jump, a lot of people wont do it, but now I know far more about software and technology compared to when I was using Windows. All that pointing and clicking did make me lazy and my mind numb.
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LInux is not so daunting!

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Most of those games you can run through wine with no issues (so long as you have the technical ability to set it up).


I think the key words there were Most meaning not all (I'm guessing Half-Life 2, one of the highest rated games of it's genre is one of them that doesn't?)
The other key word is actually an abbreviation, wine, being a windows emulator, it's proving that, as you said, linux is not a gaming platform and has to emulate windows to run some games. The other point being that it is an emulator, which suggests to me that you wont get same performance from the game as you would running it under a real Windows environment. I didn't say the games wouldn't run at all, I asked how they run, as in how much of a performance gain do you get running them them under Linux as opposed to Windows. And since you told me that most of them would run fine under wine, would you mind telling me which ones exactly and how much better the performance is then when run under windows?

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Linux was never designed as a gaming platform


try telling that to

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From my experience of this wonderful system gaming and general use has never been better, infact Linux performs a hell of a lot quicker for gaming


Also I think Linux is still a long way from 'daunting' the the percentage of PC owners.

I'm not doubting that Linux has it's benefits, it just seems like every Linux user has to attack Microsoft and attempt to convert everyone away from their OS's. And generally it seems Window's users are much readier to admit that Linux has some benefits and can be very useful for certain applications (providing there is the knowledge of how to accomplish the task).

Also, anyone heard of Unix?
I do believe that most flavours of Unix have to be paid for, while not offering many advantages over Linux, yet nobody seems to be attacking this for giving you what you can basically get for free with Linux.
What about the Mac OS? Is that free? I believe the new one is just a customised version of Linux isn't it? What's wrong Apple not big enough, not got a big enough market share?

Linux users just seem to want to stick it to Microsoft.
But over the last few years, who has been the driving force behind IT?
Would Google make the money it currently makes if all pc users had to cope with Linux? Would Linux have developed the graphical interface it has if it wasn't try to compete with Windows? Would computer be as popular as gaming machines if you had to install and play games on Linux? (Admittedly they would be designed for Linux) And if less people had PC's, don't you think there might be less IT jobs? So for all of you that work in IT, maybe your job wouldn't be there if it wasn't for Microsoft?

I'm not saying Windows is perfect, but just be thankful we have the choice we have. All of you that want to use Linux are free to do so, I'm pretty sure the install instructions for Linux don't include a section that asks you to got to a forum and point out all the bad points in Windows (although I could be wrong).

So why not just let people use the OS they want for the job they want and not try to preach as to why they should use the OS you want for the job they want. (I should probably listen to my own advice there!)

Can't we all just get along? :lol:

P.S. Sorry if that turned into another rant!
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LInux is not so daunting!

hello Smiley

I agree with your point about using an OS to suit your needs. I use both windows and linux to enable me to do what I want to do. I prefer linux as it is more flexible for what I use a computer for compared to microsoft. This comes from angles like a performance point of view and a cost point of view. Just that some things I have to use on windows as there is no linux application for it.

Wine stands for "Wine is not an emulator" there is a good readme on the wine website about how it works. It uses an MS api to load up .dll files and load a program using the windows files. This in essence is not how a true emulator works, as an emulator has to load up on environment to simulate other programs on other operating systems. Wine just uses the windows programs and loads them much like a windows system would. Its performance with applications varies, and obviously so does its support for applications. Popular items like the Macromedia suite, Office suite, Half Life 2, Medal Of honour, Autocad etc work well, but others take a hit - for example farcry - as some of the d3d extensions do not work very well because the current working version of d3d on wine does not support a lot of these functions. You would really need to set it up on your system, and see how it runs. I run a dual Xeon 2.8 ghz with a radeon 9700, and I can timedemo quake3 using a 640x480 default config with 342 fps compared to 253 with the same config on windows xp. You would have to test it to see how it runs - i cant speak for all games as I have not installed all of them.

There are also a lot of distributions of linux and unix in general. Microsoft is the classic target for any non microsoft OS, and should be attacked as often as possible Smiley But seriously, its not only microsoft. Its the battles between unix and linux, mandrake and suse, debian and gentoo which are always going to be there in the linux community. Its just the way its going to be. I still believe that my gentoo linux machine is a far superior platform for what I need to use it for. Windows just does not cut it for me anymore, probably because I dont play games as often as I used to Smiley The only reason why I use windows is that I have to support certain applications for work.

Linux was never designed as a gaming platform, but some games appear to run better on linux than windows. But I think now there are a lot of moves which are pushing for support for linux games, so I think this will change. Microsoft OS's are much better at games, because there has been time and money put into the devlopment of these, as they have dtp, cad, 3d design, web publishing etc. Linux, was mainly focused for the server market has left it very late to finally decide to move to the workstation platform. Me as a linux user, will have to wait a little while before I will get a nice number of support games for linux using a linux based install instead of a wine dll based install, and its something which I accept.

I actually agree with enhancer with the gaming performance. I assisted enhancer to get his installation up and running, and its proven a good learning curve, which is one of the reasons why I like gentoo. Now most people who use linux will preach that gentoo linux does not teach you anything at all. But I can get around my system and script it how i want compared to 2 months ago. Compare that with a mandrake install - which does everything for you - leaves you with a feeling that you are missing out.

MS took the gui leap because they knew that the system worked for its users, but this does not mean that it pinched the idea from commodore, when they were doing gui based systems before dos 6.22 was released. Bill gates had his head screwed on, and he built on that drive for his business and it paid off for him. Lets face it, people want nice looking operating systems, and linux was going to loose out unless it did something about it, hence xfree86 was born and windows entered onto linux.

I cant help it really. I am a techie by nature - whether it be tcp stack dumps, cisco config, alcatel config, gcc, perl, sql, mtrr cpu registers, ipchains or 3des vpn's, I will prefer to open up a config file, and build an application instead of something doing it for me the way it wants it to. And the beauty of loading up a media player and being able to play absolutely any video format instead of downloading all the frigging codecs is just ace Smiley

Did I mention that I love linux ? Smiley
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LInux is not so daunting!

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Did I mention that I love linux ? Smiley


Nope, I think you missed that out.
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LInux is not so daunting!

Though to be back to the original point, im afraid Linux IS daunting.

I have been using Linux for about 6-7 years now and still find it a pain in the ass. Sure its easy enough to install but getting it working exactly how it should do is another matter. Thankfully its less often that preinstalled programs actually don't work at all (used to happen with old versions of Mandrake) but theres still issues. Its flexibility is what causes its downfall for the average user.

I wont even consider a Windows server though, Linux all the way. And it is true, Quake 3 runs a lot better on Linux although the gamma is always too dark (I havent tried tweaking it). I keep meaning to try UT2004 on Linux but with it being such a large install I never have enough space to install it, as I need to keep it on Windows as I don't plan to reboot into Linux all the time just to play that single game when all the others are Windows only.

Incidentally I think the point that most people would love Linux if they were brought up on it is actually wrong. If Windows had not existed then MacOS would have been the definitive OS because its the easier for the none technicaly type to use. Linux would confuse the hell outta your average office user. Though it does have to be said, if the hardware developers supported Linux 100% I guess hardware support would be better so one less problem for people to worry about.

Sorry, im babbling now.......
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LInux is not so daunting!

Hello Again,

I've read all the previous comments on this subject and I find myself in agreement with many of the valid points made about Linux. But for me personally I found like others that Linux IS daunting. Yes! installing this OS is fine and yes! I like many many of the features it offers such as the GUI's and window managers.

But the wall to jump is when you have a serious technical problem with the OS or you are required to configure or tweak the system in some shape or form. I just found the Linux technical terminology & technical language utterly alien. It took me x10 times as long to a solve technical problem it was a painful process and I found that support was almost non exsistent if you couldnt get online.

**Once again what lets this excellent OS down was the sheer lack of user friendly applications available (the only office suite was Star Office and I'm sorry but the version I donwloaded and installed was utter pants!) The final nail in the coffin for me was the lack of file format compatibility with espcially windows (but that might have changed in recent times I'm not entirely sure?).

**No! I have a great deal of RESPECT for those people that like or want to use Linux but its too hard work for me, to hard to work with and its an OS for those who can easily relate to it, its just that I'm not one of those people and I have absolutely No! shame in admitting that either. Yes! its very good to have such a wide range of OS systems to select from TRUE!!

**IF I was such a stick in the mud or such a die hard MS person then I wouldnt have even tried to install RedHat Linux, nobody can accuse me of not having had a go with Linux atleast I played around with it. Atleast I can appreciate what the real differences are. Atleast I have a view on the subject and can talk from personal experience which is better than nowt!! Uhh!!

Ivan
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LInux is not so daunting!

will linux play all my normal games like half-life 2 , doom3 etc.?
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LInux is not so daunting!

Half life 2 via wine and Doom3 as standard.

I run Gentoo, and all i have to do to run doom 3 is "emerge doom3" and it downloads and installs for ya (so long as you have the dvd with the pak files on to copy over during the install)

Wine is simple to set up, so long as your knowledge is willing to expand from the fortress of what is a windows gui...

other than that .. should have no issues with it