should plusnet be offering better routers with their broadband?

[#1]

Until you actually have to pay, it is free!

[#2]

Hairy McBiker, whilst I sympathise slightly with what you say, when you look at the price you pay for your Fibre broadband,  the contract of which is generally longer than the duration of the deferred charge, was paying the P&P that big a price to pay It's still useful for diagnostics for some problems.
As others have said the 582n is used and supplied by a number of other ISPs and generally does the job adequately for the great majority of customers. But maybe Plusnet should review the circumstances in which they supply the 582m for Fibre.
That's a fairly sarcastic post there ejs, not that I particularly blame you
There are a couple of points where I'd disagree in part -
The 582n can be a bit of a pig to configure certain things, however that website is not the only place where there is advice and information, there's plenty of posts on this forum. I think there was one that listed several useful posts, I was going to try and make a list of such posts including that site (I assume you mean npr's) but haven't had the time to do it.
The AR7 chipset is very good in certain circumstances, but the broadcom chipsets (with the right firmware) do have the edge. I did some interesting tests recently during the recent storms. I was amazed at how one of my older broadcom based modem/routers (with a later firmware not specifically written for that version) held the connection and I had a similar experience with the 582n with 10.2.5.2.EO firmware in ADSL mode, as the thunder and lighting passed overhead and continued in the direction of the exchange. It didn't do much for the errors though
As for the what's to blame remarks, there may be an odd CSC agent who's not sufficiently clued up that makes comments like that, but I continue to read posts here where the CSC support provided for some non-Plusnet supplied equipment is clearly excellent.

[#3]

And my AR7 netgear is also perfectly capable of holding on to the connection during thunderstorms (2 on July 18, another on July 19 and 20). The sync speed might be momentarily reported as zero, but it doesn't drop the connection, it's probably more like an unavailable second. There were 2 downstream LOS errors on the 18th, and I'm sure you know what they mean.
How many AR7 routers have you tested recently? It's perfectly possible to configure them for more stability. Or are we each just going to declare our router the winner of a race with one competitor?
Anyway, for whatever reason, ADSL troubleshooting gets done on a totally different level to wireless troubleshooting. ADSL might well look at various stats, SNR margins, error rates, line tests etc. Wireless just gets inssider and declaring that the neighbours' wireless must be the problem. Nobody appears to be willing and able to investigate wireless issues properly. Besides checking the wireless rates at which data is being transmitted and received, and the received signal level at each end of the wireless connection, it would be useful to determine what protection mechanisms are in use (11n with full RTS/CTS protection and no frame aggregation ends up with overheads at 77%). If anybody captured some wireless traffic in monitor mode, (with wireshark on Linux or Microsoft Network Monitor on Windows), then they'd be able to see if there is a lot of traffic from other networks visible or not. Or if the other networks are far away or there's nothing transferring any data over them, then they'll see just the management beacon packets, at 10 packets per second, which is a tiny amount of traffic compared with the traffic when downloading something. They'd also be able to get an idea of how many packets were being retransmitted, although they'd need to move the device doing the monitoring to each end of the wireless connection.

[#4]

At the risk of going off topic, are there end user friendly easy to use tools around which would enable people to do this?
As you suggest, routers tell us a great deal about what's happening over ADSL but dammed all about wifi.  Is there useful information to be had from the CLI interface?

[#5]

Perhaps the fans of the 582n should answer that question. There's plenty of data available from the CLI, working out what it means is another matter.

{admin}=>wireless ifconfig
Admin State             : enabled
Oper State              : enabled
Network name (SSID)     : PNW
Public network (any)    : enabled
Band                    : 2.4GHz
Channelwidth            : 20 MHz
Channel                 : 6 [auto] 
RTS Threshold           : 2347
Short Retry Limit       : 7
Long Retry Limit        : 4
Beacon Period           : 100
Rate                    : 144 Mbps
Interoperability        : 802.11b/g/n
Frame Aggregation       : ampdu
Protection              : auto
Protection Mode         : ctstoself
Protection Trigger      : local&overlap 
Shortslot               : auto
Framebursting           : enabled
Regulatory Domain       : Europe
Rate Set                : 1(b) 2(b) 5.5(b) 6 9 11(b) 12 18 24 36 48 54 
Dtim interval           : 3 (every 300 msec)
BSSID                   : a4:b1:e9:d1:74:5d
Interference Mode       : auto 
Interference ChannelList: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 
Short Guard Time        : enabled
Cyclic Delay Diversity  : enabled
Space Time Block Coding : enabled
{admin}=>wireless debug hwdump
flags [00000003] frameburst [on], oper state [up]
channel [11014] srl [7] lrl [4] dtim [3] rts [2347] beacon-period [100] rate[144]
standard [802.11b/g/n] protection [auto] protection-ctrl [local&overlap] shortslot [auto]
locale [Europe], protection-mode [rtscts]
rate [1(b) 2(b) 5.5(b) 6 9 11(b) 12 18 24 36 48 54 ]
{admin}=>debug exec cmd="wld help"
...
{admin}=>debug exec cmd="wld alldata"
=====================DISCLAIMER======================
 Access to expert commands is intended for qualified 
 personnel only.                                     
==================END=OF=DISCLAIMER==================
WL Driver specific Data:
  wl up (1 = up)? : 00000001
wl_xstats:
  bcast_rx        : 00000000
  bcast_tx        : 00000000
  mcast_rx        : 00000000
  mcast_tx        : 00000000
wl_pstats:
  disc_errs       : 0
  frames_rx       : 0
  frames_tx       : 81
wl_errors:
  fcs_errs        : 00000000
  int_mac_rx_errs : 00000000
  align_errs      : 00000000
  too_long_errs   : 00000000
  int_mac_tx_errs : 00000000
 wl_pub transmit stat counters:
  wl tx data frames                     : 00000081
  wl tx data bytes                      : 00014497
  wl tx mac retransmissions             : 00000000
  wl tx data failures                   : 00000000
  wl tx data errors                     : 00000005
  wl tx management frames               : 00000002
  wl tx short preamble frames           : 00000000
  wl txstatuserr                        : 00000000
  wl tx out of buffers errors           : 00000000
  wl tx discard because we're not assoc : 00000005
  wl tx runt frames                     : 00000000
  wl tx header cache hit (fastpath)     : 00000000
  wl tx header cache miss (slowpath)    : 00000008
 wl_pub transmit chip error counters:
  wl tx fifo underflows                 : 00000000
  wl tx phy errors                      : 00000000
  wl txphycrs                           : 00000000
 wl queue sizes:
  wl total packets held by driver       : 00000000
  wl psq length (all stations)          : 00000000
  wl block datafifo                     : 00000000
 wl_pub transmit stat counters:
  wl tx data frames                     : 00000081
  wl tx data bytes                      : 00014497
  wl tx mac retransmissions             : 00000000
  wl tx data failures                   : 00000000
  wl tx data errors                     : 00000005
  wl tx management frames               : 00000002
  wl tx short preamble frames           : 00000000
  wl txstatuserr                        : 00000000
  wl tx out of buffers errors           : 00000000
  wl tx discard because we're not assoc : 00000005
  wl tx runt frames                     : 00000000
  wl tx header cache hit (fastpath)     : 00000000
  wl tx header cache miss (slowpath)    : 00000008
 wl_pub transmit chip error counters:
  wl tx fifo underflows                 : 00000000
  wl tx phy errors                      : 00000000
  wl txphycrs                           : 00000000
 wl queue sizes:
  wl total packets held by driver       : 00000000
  wl psq length (all stations)          : 00000000
  wl block datafifo                     : 00000000
 wl_pub receive stat counters:
  wl rx data frames                     : 00000000
  wl rx data bytes                      : 00000000
  wl rx data errors                     : 00000000
  wl rx management frames               : 00022083
  wl rx out of buffers errors           : 00000000
  wl rx non data fr in data channel err : 00000000
  wl rx bad DS errors                   : 00000000
  wl rx bad control or management fr    : 00000000
  wl rx fragmentation errors            : 00000000
  wl rx runt frames                     : 00000000
  wl rx giant frames                    : 00000000
  wl rx no scb error                    : 00000000
  wl rxbadproto - rx invalid frames     : 00000000
  wl rx frames with Invalid Src Mac     : 00000000
  wl rx frames tossed for invalid da    : 00000663
  wl rx frames filtered out             : 00000000
 wl_pub receive chip error counters:
  wl rx fifo overflow errors            : 00000000
  wl rx dma descriptor underfl error : 00000000
  wl rx dma descriptor underfl error : 00000000
  wl rx dma descriptor underfl error : 00000000
  wl rx dma descriptor underfl error : 00000000
  wl rx dma descriptor underfl error : 00000000
  wl rx dma descriptor underfl error : 00000000
  wl d11cnt txrts value when rst d11cnt : 00000000
  wl d11cnt rxcrc value when rst d11cnt : 00000000
  wl d11cnt txnocts val when rst d11cnt : 00000000
 wl_pub misc counters:
  wl dma desc err                       : 00000000
  wl dma data err                       : 00000000
  wl dma descr prot err                 : 00000000
  wl reset                              : 00000011
  wl cnts the TBTT int's                : 00014806
  wl txdmawar                           : 00000000
  wl max nr of large pkts allowed pending : 00000010
  wl max packet loss prevention time    : 00000000
  wl watchdog reset                     : 00000000
  wl swdecrypt                          : 00000000

Obviously that output was collected while fiddling about with the 582n for a few minutes with it connected to nothing before switching it off after realising doing almost anything else whatsoever would be more interesting and worthwhile.
And a lot of data from the auto channel selection system. I think you should be able to get signal strengths, number of networks, channel utilisation, noise levels on each channel. Of course that's as seen from where the 582n is located. The conditions may not be the same where your computer is. And if the problem is that the other networks can't detect the 582n's transmissions and therefore can't avoid interrupting them, trying to avoid the other networks isn't the only solution.
I'm not sure I'd call WifiChannelMonitor particularly useful but it'd at least give a count of data bytes received. No surprises that it requires Microsoft Network Monitor installed, and of course being in monitor mode you still won't have a wireless connection to the router for Internet access.

[#6]

@ejs
I was trying to be fairly jocular about your 10:01 post which did amuse me, but you implied there was only one source of guidance on using the 582n CLI so I said "There are a couple of points where I'd disagree in part -" furthermore I have never said the AR7 chipset is no good.

Quote from: ejs

And my AR7 netgear is also perfectly capable of holding on to the connection during thunderstorms (2 on July 18, another on July 19 and 20). The sync speed might be momentarily reported as zero, but it doesn't drop the connection, it's probably more like an unavailable second. There were 2 downstream LOS errors on the 18th, and I'm sure you know what they mean.

Did I say that your AR7 netgear couldn't hold your connection during a thunderstorm, NO I didn't. Not for the first time you seem to attempt to misquote or twist what I said. (& I'll address that in the relevant thread when I can be bothered). What I did say was

Quote from: Anotherone

The AR7 chipset is very good in certain circumstances, but the broadcom chipsets (with the right firmware) do have the edge.

That's my humble opinion, and I'm entitled to it. No doubt as you think the AR7 chipset has the edge and you are entitled to that opinion. I'm not going to argue it. There are some things where we have our own opinions and they should be respected. You however seem to go round on occasions trying to pick an argument. Endof.

Quote from: ejs

How many AR7 routers have you tested recently? It's perfectly possible to configure them for more stability. Or are we each just going to declare our router the winner of a race with one competitor?

Yeh, I declare mine the winner 
As for your comments about Wireless trouble shooting, very interesting. Just a shame more of your posts can't be more constructive like that.
Your last post (13:53) makes no attempt to answer Townman's previous question and is certainly of no benefit to the majority of 582n users.

[#7]

I suppose I'd better make a post to inform everyone that I'll be replying to the previous post at a later time.

[#8]

cant log into router,dns problems,dmz and port forwarding sometimes work and if you like gaming get rid of router asap  isps supply that router because it saves money

[#9]

Maybe you haven't got it setup quite right, not that it's easy to do, granted. Does any of this information about Gaming help or any of the setup information here or here help?
If it's in a bit of a mess, it could be best to do a factory reset and set it all up again.
@ejs - I wouldn't bother, you'll only go off-topic 

[#10]

I don't think discussing the merits of alternative modem/routers is going to be off-topic. You appeared to be highlighting how good broadcom based modem/routers are based on how they held the connection during a thunderstorm, I don't think that's misquoting you nor twisting your words. For some reason I'm in big trouble for pointing out other modem/routers that do the same thing. I'm not even sure why you'd be "amazed" that the broadcom modems/routers could do that if you thought they have "the edge", whatever the edge is supposed to be. If you thought they had the edge, wouldn't you be expecting them to hold the connection rather than be amazed that they did? But I suppose you'd rather do some more character assassination than tell us what the broadcom edge is, or say what you've compared the broadcom models against.

Quote from: Anotherone

As for your comments about Wireless trouble shooting, very interesting. Just a shame more of your posts can't be more constructive like that. Your last post (13:53) makes no attempt to answer Townman's previous question and is certainly of no benefit to the majority of 582n users.

Well, too bad if you disapprove of some of my posts. I suppose me offering information that doesn't fit with your opinions must be really inconvenient. I didn't think each post has to address every single point of the previous post, but why you have to give your critique of my post I have no idea. Presumably any discussion of different routers is not going to be of any benefit to 582n users, unless it convinces them to stop being a 582n user. Not that you bothered to offer any information on what could be obtained from the 582n or suggest any useful easy to use software (or even some not so easy to use, for more advanced users) for wireless troubleshooting - complaints about the 582n wireless appear on these forums from time to time. Perhaps if you didn't think I'd answered Townman's questions fully enough, you should have answered them yourself, which would have been more useful than criticising me.
The AR7 chipset was made by the part of Texas Instruments that eventually became Lantiq. Lantiq chips are used in the BTHomeHub 5 and the ECI VDSL2 modems amongst others. Perhaps plusnet should just offer a re-branded BTHomeHub in a white casing, as part of a package that offers everything that BT does for the same price.

[#11]

There you go, twisting things around again, yes you are twisting my words. I do not say that Broadcom based routers were so good simply because they held my connection in a thunderstorm. What I said was

Quote from: Anotherone

I was amazed at how one of my older broadcom based modem/routers (with a later firmware not specifically written for that version) held the connection and I had a similar experience with the 582n with 10.2.5.2.EO firmware in ADSL mode, as the thunder and lighting passed overhead and continued in the direction of the exchange. It didn't do much for the errors though

It was a deliberate test to see if they would hold on and whether the more recent firmware was better than the old and I was amazed as well as pleased that the older broadcom based modem/router with newer firmware did hold on. That certainly hadn't been my previous experience with older firmware. In case you hadn't noticed, electrical storms are pretty vicious things, I dare say had the storm been more severe, no-one's modem would have held on.
So your AR7 Netgear managed to hold on as well, so you think it's better than the 582n, bully for you, and as you well know I was criticising your post for reasons other than you saying your AR7 Netgear managed to hold the connection.
I happen to think that Broadcom based routers have the edge over others, based on my overall experience with all routers as well as other people's experiences, but I also qualified my opinion with the comment "(with the right firmware)" , which is a point you have conveniently chosen to ignore.
And frankly I don't give a stuff whether you like me disapproving of some of your posts, exactly what information did you think you were providing in your reply #34? I would say one could extract a similar load of information from any modem/router and what would it mean out of context?  - nothing, just like your post #34.
As for you last comment, trying to give me some sort of history lesson were you, don't make me laugh, Texas Instruments have made some brilliant chips over the years and they still do, that doesn't mean other manufacturers haven't produced brilliant chips as well, take a look at Intel, Samsung, AMD...... And then you suggest that just because Lantiq produce the chips for the HH5, Plusnet should rebadge it. Have you looked at some of the comments about the HH5 and it's spontaneous reboots? I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole at present. If they manage to come up with a firmware update that cures the problem and if people then find it performs well, I might bother to give it a look.
As for you saying I should have answered Townman's questions, why should I? I happen to know that his knowledge about wifi is far greater than mine, and as for discussing the merits of alternative modem/routers where exactly have you done that? Most that have posted in support of the 582n are just saying it's adequate for the job it's intended to do. You've tried to tear the 582n apart and also say your AR7 based Netgear is better, but for example you haven't bothered to say what firmware you've got on it. It certainly seem to be performing well on your connection, I wouldn't dispute that. Has it got Netgears firmware or DGTeam or what?

[#12]

I agree as Plusnet 582n fibre router is rubbish on wifi performance but it ok if u only using via ethernet. I am using Netgear WNR2000 and the wifi is much better than Plusnet 582n because Netgear wifi on N mode is 300Mbps where Plusnet 582n is only 144Mbps

[#13]

hey,
I'm on fibre and have the standard 582n router plus BT's modem. Is it possible to replace both of these boxes with just one? If so any recommendations?
thanks,
alan

[#14]

I wouldn't say it has 'rubbish wireless'.
I was able to get 70-80Mbps wireless from about 25m away and this was through several walls - this was without even trying to tweak the settings.

[#15]

@goldenfibre
The 582n defaults to a maximum rate of 130Mbps. Enabling SGI (short guard interval) increases that to a maximum rate of 144Mbps. Having SGI enabled and setting the channel width to 20/40 would increase that to 300Mbps. The netgear operating at 300Mbps would also be using SGI and 40MHz of bandwidth. Using 40MHz of bandwidth could actually be making things worse, see Fix #5 on http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wireless/wireless-basics/30664-5-ways-to-fix-slow-80211n-speed
@Anotherone
Actually I've never even stated that I think the AR7 chipset is better than some broadcom chipset. Like other people in this thread, I've shared my personal experience of it. I haven't made any sweeping generalisations. I'm interested in finding out which routers might be better than others, as I imagine are many other people, but I'd prefer to see some data rather than just hearing everyone's opinion. I'm using the standard netgear 4.01.40 firmware. The DG834V3_V4.01.40_DGTeam_0849.zip firmware, which I only downloaded earlier to inspect, contains exactly the same ADSL code as the standard netgear firmware. The DGTeam firmware for these models contains almost no extra facilities for setting ADSL related parameters, and there's nothing ADSL related in the DGTeam firmware that can't be done with the standard netgear firmware for these models.
Post #33 asked about wireless software and CLI commands for getting information about the wireless from the 582n. Post #34 gives some examples of the CLI commands for getting information about the wireless from the 582n, and suggests another program for gathering wireless data, which might not be the greatest thing in the world, but might be better than nothing. It was intended for Townman so I didn't think I'd need to dumb it down excessively. There's no need to read anything into the fact I'm not going to reply right now to every single word you've said, even if various other things probably need addressing.