Whats larks,eh?

[#1]

Quote from: Townman

If you can get away with it, make a right song and dance of the rather poor internal wiring to the master socket.  Ask if it is twisted pair of a suitable quality for GOOD ADSL operation?

Then again you might get the same BTOR idiot that I got first time around who told me that twisted pairs were not necessary and what was there ( prehistoric wiring ) was good enough!

[#2]

Hi jem16.
It's the luck of the draw as to the quality of the BTOR response, but I will be armed the not inconsiderable advice that I have gleaned from this resource.
That and the box containing loads of routers, cables, filters etc. all of which have bought in an attempt to rectify the situation myself.
Plus, something that I never, ever thought I'd be saying, but as I have just turned 60, I'll be playing the 'vulnerable lone person that needs the phone as a lifeline' card...
As for now, having pointlessly waited in for two hours for an nPower person to come & fix my gas meter as arranged, I'm off out back to swing an axe at some firewood 

[#3]

Quote from: Kittyfrisk

Hi jem16. It's the luck of the draw as to the quality of the BTOR response, but I will be armed the not inconsiderable advice that I have gleaned from this resource.

Yes I had all that to hand too. Unfortunately the guy I got was not for listening.
The second guy was much better and did change the wiring after I impressed him with my knowledge  ;).

Quote

Plus, something that I never, ever thought I'd be saying, but as I have just turned 60, I'll be playing the 'vulnerable lone person that needs the phone as a lifeline' card...

Even tried that as a lone female - don't think it worked. 

Quote

As for now, having pointlessly waited in for two hours for an nPower person to come & fix my gas meter as arranged, I'm off out back to swing an axe at some firewood

Just be careful......

[#4]

Where is the alleged non-twisted pair cable here? There are orange and white wires from the drop wire, connected to the blue/white and white/blue pair in the indoor cable. Since the purpose of the engineer visit is (presumably) to fix the noise on the telephone, I doubt they'll be interested in broadband issues.

[#5]

Thanks for the concern.
My axe (and chainsaw!) skills are well practiced and honed.
Anyway, it was just a brief therapy session, as its getting too dark to do anything safely.
Sorry to hear that you had such a rubbish BB/BTOR experience and hope that you got everything reconciled in the end.

[#6]

Hi EJS,
I am playing this a straight phone line fault issue ('cos I believe it is).
The fact that my BB is also negatively impacted, is a peripheral issue, but one that I can use to demonstrate the problem.
So BTOR may not be bothered about BB issues, but they have to get to the bottom (optimistic!) of the phone line problem.
Cheers.

[#7]

Quote from: ejs

Where is the alleged non-twisted pair cable here?

Hi ejs,
No one alleged anything, rather one sought to suggest an open question for a BTOR expert to answer as to the quality of the wiring.  The wiring looks a bit naff and if there is room for improvement, then what's the beef with Kittyfrisk asking the question?

Quote from: Townman

Ask if it is twisted pair of a suitable quality for GOOD ADSL operation?

At worse it brings about no change, at best it might deliver some improvement for ADSL operation.  You know as well as anyone around here how difficult it is to get an engineer on site and best advice would be to get as many potential improvements done as possible.  In my experience also asking for a new MK3 faceplate can be met with a positive response.

[#8]

Quote from: Kittyfrisk

Sorry to hear that you had such a rubbish BB/BTOR experience and hope that you got everything reconciled in the end.

I'm afraid not.
My issue way back from the start in November was the US SNR dipping quiet dramatically at times on every incoming call. Fortunately it never dropped the BB until one dismal attempt by BTOR made it worse and it did.
In the end BTOR point blankly refused to change the line splitter card ( which was about all that was left to try ) as they did not/could not understand what the issue was despite valiant attempts by Tony of CRT here. We even had one BTOR engineer who proved it wasn't my line by disconnecting at the exchange and getting the same problem on incoming calls. Eventually we had to give up and the issue remains.
It still rears its ugly head at times with DLM intervening for no apparent reason and changing the DS SNR.
I'm more than likely to be moving back to Sky in the next couple of weeks in the hope that changing to Sky's LLU equipment will solve the issue.

[#9]

Edit: This whole post is in reply to Reply #51 and Reply #52 above it.
I think the problem could be that the "telephone engineer", or engineer tasked with fixing the noise on the telephone, on not quickly finding any obvious fault, but hearing about your broadband issues, would tell you that you need a broadband engineer (engineer tasked with fixing your broadband, not necessarily a different grade of engineer), and then leave without doing anything.
The harm in asking is that the engineer will tell you they'd be a charge for that, and then they'd have to not do it, without charging you at least. Why would they dish out a new Mk3 faceplate for a phone fault? I'm well aware that some engineers seem to hand out new master sockets and faceplates to anyone in the street who approaches them and asks for one, but I get the engineer who tells us they'd be a charge for a modern master socket, so then isn't going to install one, but bills us just the same anyway. I thought it was quite easy to get an engineer on site, getting them to bother to do anything worthwhile is another matter.
@jem16
It becomes difficult for me to remain sympathetic to what amounts to a "dsl stats not perfect" issue of your broadband not disconnecting on incoming calls. Especially when your own broadband probably will disconnect when the phone is answered. But since no-one else who lives here cares or even notices, and most of the time I wouldn't even notice either, unless I was looking a stats graphs, it's hardly worth the hassle of dragging out another engineer. Still, the phone line usually dies completely about once a year, at which point you don't have much choice, and then the engineer can botch it back to working again and expect you be grateful for getting it working again.

[#10]

Hi ejs,
You mention that you think, that I think (please bear with me here)
  the problem could be that the "telephone engineer", or engineer tasked with fixing the noise on the telephone, on not quickly finding any obvious fault, but hearing about your broadband issues, would tell you that you need a broadband engineer (engineer tasked with fixing your broadband, not necessarily a different grade of engineer), and then leave without doing anything.
I don't believe I said anything of the sort?
Or perhaps I have misunderstood and this comment was not directed toward myself ?
You also mention :
"The harm in asking is that the engineer will tell you they'd be a charge for that, and then they'd have to not do it, without charging you at least. Why would they dish out a new Mk3 faceplate for a phone fault? I'm well aware that some engineers seem to hand out new master sockets and faceplates to anyone in the street who approaches them and asks for one, but I get the engineer who tells us they'd be a charge for a modern master socket, so then isn't going to install one, but bills us just the same anyway. I thought it was quite easy to get an engineer on site, getting them to bother to do anything worthwhile is another matter."

Can I be clear that I have no intention of asking anyone for a 'freebie Mk3'  or anything else and that all I expect is that if there is a fault with my phone line that a BOTR engineer can & will fix it.
Not being arch here, just trying to clarify my position, so no offence intended.
To jem 16, sorry that things worked out so badly for you.
I travel in hope & hope to learn from experience, but your experience was not great (master of understatement here...).
It must indeed be bad if you are considering going to Sky  (oops! my prejudicial slip showing here).
Better luck for the future 

[#11]

Quote from: ejs

@jem16 It becomes difficult for me to remain sympathetic to what amounts to a "dsl stats not perfect" issue of your broadband not disconnecting on incoming calls.

I'm not looking for your sympathy so please feel free to not be sympathetic.
However it's a little more than a "dsl stats not perfect" issue. I really don't care if they're perfect or not. What I do care about is not having crackles when answering my phone and having speed limited due to errors because of the incoming calls issue when I don't exactly have a fast connection as it is. There is faulty equipment somewhere and no-one should have to just accept that.

Quote

Especially when your own broadband probably will disconnect when the phone is answered. But since no-one else who lives here cares or even notices, and most of the time I wouldn't even notice either, unless I was looking a stats graphs, it's hardly worth the hassle of dragging out another engineer. Still, the phone line usually dies completely about once a year, at which point you don't have much choice, and then the engineer can botch it back to working again and expect you be grateful for getting it working again.

As to your own issues I'm sorry that's happening too. However if you're happy to accept it then that is your prerogative but don't expect everyone else to just accept it too.

[#12]

Quote from: Kittyfrisk

To jem 16, sorry that things worked out so badly for you. I travel in hope & hope to learn from experience, but your experience was not great (master of understatement here...). It must indeed be bad if you are considering going to Sky  (oops! my prejudicial slip showing here). Better luck for the future

Thanks.
I need to get off BT equipment to see if the fault is rectified. Sky or TalkTalk would be available. As I've been with Sky and not had any problems that seems the obvious choice. TalkTalk doesn't have great reputation.
Virgin is of course another option if I want fibre which I can't get anywhere else. It would certainly fix the issue with calls.

[#13]

Hi all,
Just to let you know that the BT Openreach engineer has been out.
He fixed the crimped joint at the front door as a matter of course and carried out various tests.
As predicted, the noise was not present on the line throughout the tests 
However...  my history of events and most importantly, my recording of the line noise, was enough to convince him that there is a genuine line issue.
As he said, nothing else but a line fault would cause that noise and the symptoms that I have been suffering.
He wasn't able to do anything further as he couldn't access the pole (height issue) or access the underground part (enclosed spaces) which is fair enough as they are genuine safety issues.
He is going to keep the fault report open and investigate further, so I'll wait & see what happens.
I am just so relieved that there is a genuine fault and I have a faint glimmer of hope that it will get sorted.

[#14]

Hi Kittyfrisk, some progress at last - considering when you started this thread, and welcome to the forum btw, I note no-one bothered to say that!
The title of your thread intrigued me, so it was on my "to read" list, a bit to catch up on having been away on hols for a few weeks, but another poster pointed me this way, so I'm here sooner than I might have been.

Quote from: Kittyfrisk

I am playing this a straight phone line fault issue ('cos I believe it is). The fact that my BB is also negatively impacted, is a peripheral issue, but one that I can use to demonstrate the problem.

That is precisely it, you've hit the nail on the head. In fact one needs to be careful about mentioning the broadband in the wrong situations otherwise you can get the run around. I'm disappointed that some posters earlier in the thread did not make that distinction very clearly (they ought to know better as well) Chris Parr was quite right in his comments. There was a time when if Plusnet was your BB and Phone supplier, these issues didn't arise, but alas, that is no longer. First line support don't seem to have a clue. Luckily there are some good Plusnet CRT members on here.
The trouble with intermittent line faults, as you've discovered, is actually getting a test result showing a fault and it does sound like you had a decent engineer. When you are getting frequent (but intermittent) noise it often does no harm to egg it up a bit. Moan about how sometimes the noise makes it difficult to hear a caller and on occasion a call will drop.
Let's hope that when this is next picked up by OR, they don't try the No Fault Found, the H&S implications unfortunately meant the engineer couldn't do more. Two engineers are needed when they bring a cherry picker and manholes and ducts also require appropriately trained engineers.  The problem these days is the pressures that the engineers are under from the managers, and unless there is some "evidence" of a problem, they often aren't in a position the investigate further.
It is certainly not the case that whilst investigating a phone fault an engineer should say you need a broadband engineer and there will be a charge if you happen to mention issues with BB as well (as suggested by ejs) but one is advised to make light of the BB situation if you get the slightest inclining that you don't have a sympathetic, helpful or interested engineer - there are a few that exist, a number of which couldn't care less because they can no longer do a "proper" job as it was in the old days. They are timed on everything.
Nor is it advisable to just talk about the wiring being "good" for ADSL when it's a phone fault they are attending (especially if it's obviously twisted pair wiring) - you might want to comment about it being a bit shoddy if the engineer seems friendly enough, they might replace it. But it should be normal practise to replace the master socket, but not necessarily a Filtered face place in a phone fault situation. If you obviously have your own Face Plate a good engineer will often fit the Mk3 plate as a matter of course.
I have to say that OR may bounce this back to Plusnet as NFF if when they next test nothing shows (unfortunately the last word is not down to the engineer who attended). Plusnet may also try palming you off in these circumstances. The trick when reporting these type of faults in the first place is to clearly state that it's intermittent and to make sure they log that fact and to tell Openreach that (to protect you from any possible charges). Some providers immediately try charging a customer if OR report NFF, Plusnet haven't been like that in the past, but things can change.
IF they try fobbing you off, get very insistent, tell them it been going on for years but has recently got a lot worse and you are not putting up with it, and they need to escalate it with Openreach.
Finally, just to pick up on some other remarks in this thread that I feel could paint a misleading picture, but jem16 got it right -

Quote from: jem16

Quote from: ejs @jem16 It becomes difficult for me to remain sympathetic to what amounts to a "dsl stats not perfect" issue of your broadband not disconnecting on incoming calls. I'm not looking for your sympathy so please feel free to not be sympathetic.

What you seem to have missed in jem16's case ejs, is it's not just "dsl stats not perfect"

Quote from: jem16

However it's a little more than a "dsl stats not perfect" issue. I really don't care if they're perfect or not. What I do care about is not having crackles when answering my phone and having speed limited due to errors because of the incoming calls issue when I don't exactly have a fast connection as it is. There is faulty equipment somewhere and no-one should have to just accept that.

To expand on that, it's the increased error rate that is periodically the problem. It may have escaped your attention, but 21CN DLM is capable, can and does alter Downstream parameters as a result of US issues (eg.increase the Downstream Target SNRM - with the resultant slower speed). jem16 recently had a very clear example of that (and not for the first time).

[#15]

Quote from: jem16

What I do care about is not having crackles when answering my phone

And yet things like this rarely get mentioned in between posting all the dsl stats and graphs.

Quote from: Anotherone

To expand on that, it's the increased error rate that is periodically the problem. It may have escaped your attention, but 21CN DLM is capable, can and does alter Downstream parameters as a result of US issues (eg.increase the Downstream Target SNRM - with the resultant slower speed). jem16 recently had a very clear example of that (and not for the first time).

Very few people appear to record and monitor the errors as thoroughly and graphing the SNRM, so I'm not convinced there's sufficient evidence to draw the conclusions that the DLM is altering the downstream due to issues with the upstream. I could say the line rate and SNRM are dsl stats, but I've been told it's not just about dsl stats.