What to do when source of REIN doesnt want to know!

[#1]

I have been having apparently random REIN problems for years, it is mains born and Pnet helped me separate the telco drop wire from the grid drop wire to improve the issue but it still remains, an initial drop of ~3dB followed by a gradual recovery to a drop of ~1dB over 1/2hr or so, this often knocks out my link unless I run it with a very high SNR (read low speed) in the first place.  I have been around with my radio that I fitted with an S meter to improve DF but I have to get it in that 1st 1/2hr, well I finally got there, it's a neighbors campsite/car workshop and it's the spray shop lighting consisting of maybe 24 fluorescent tubes. He helpfully turned it off while I stood there with the radio and the noise stopped, later I correlated this with DSL stats SNR plot clearly showing when the lights were turned off. That was Sunday and he was off out for the day.

Today I approached the guy showing my plots and asking if I/we could investigate if there was a faulty fitting or loose wire and got told to go get a life and anyway he did not use the internet so doesn't care

I feel a bit peeved after so many years of painstaking work tracking this down, does anybody have any suggestions what my next step could be ?

Attached is plot for day in question, short spike at 07:47 is when lights were turned off to demonstrate to me !

I suspect there may be one or more electronic ballasts installed as harmonics are ~50Khz spacing.

[#2]

Does this interference affect other users?  Maybe the guy would be more cooperative if several different people we on at him.

[#3]

It does but they do not have the knowledge or equipment to trace and prove the source.

I not the silence of plusnet staff on this matter!

[#4]

Hi @hitchhiker43 

I not the silence of plusnet staff on this matter

Whilst i understand how frustrating this may be for you, I'm afraid this is something completely out of our jurisdiction and control as an ISP. 

Kind Regards, 

MoR

[#5]

Really, I am astonished, so if someone has poor service & dropouts due to REIN Plusnet wash there hands of it, is that what your saying ?

[#6]

Hi @hitchhiker43,

The difficulty is that our suppliers will come to the same conclusion of REIN being detected from that property. At this point, they would ask the owner of the bulbs to remove them and unfortunately then becoming dependent on the owners discretion.

Under circumstances where REIN is detect by an engineer, a full investigation would take place to locate the source. If the source is out of their control, it is also out of ours / yours.
 

By all means, raise a fault and let us know when you have completed but I must advise that the likely outcome would be at the end of the investigation you are free to close the account without early termination fees.

Thank you.

[#7]

Sadly this whole space is yet another farce brought about by Ofcom. ISPs rent services from BTOR and when those services fail, it’s the ISPs who catch the flack and clams for compensation. Whilst on the face of it this might sound sensible (the contract is with the ISP) getting money back and being released from the contract really does not help. OK the subscriber gets released penalty free ... but the REIN is still present. See https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/bills-and-utilities/broadband/sky-broadband-wiped...

What is required, under telecommunications acts, is for a body to have the power to force the owner of the source of REIN to stop generating the interference with telecommunications systems and to repair or replace the generating equipment.

This might require changes in legislation - it is worth a letter to your MP. Everyone sees the reasonable logic of being able to address the source of REIN, but no one has the power and the will to force the issue.

May be one could try passing the problem to the power supply company - if they cut the power off the REIN would be eliminate!

[#8]

Perhaps the effort might be better spent on getting something better than ADSL available, and then the interference might not matter so much.

[#9]

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@Townman wrote:
What is required, under telecommunications acts, is for a body to have the power to force the owner of the source of REIN to stop generating the interference with telecommunications systems and to repair or replace the generating equipment.

This might require changes in legislation - it is worth a letter to your MP. Everyone sees the reasonable logic of being able to address the source of REIN, but no one has the power and the will to force the issue.

With the internet now seen as an "essential service", it does seem an anomaly that enforcement action can be taken in the case on interference to TV/radio reception, but not to broadband. 
https://www.ofcom.org.uk/spectrum/interference-enforcement/spectrum-enforcement

[#10]

@hitchhiker43 

The UK has to comply with the CE EMC Directive. This states that equipment shall meet certain limits on EMC emissions. It sounds as if this factory has equipment that fails to meet this standard. Ensuring compliance is the responsibility of Ofcom and your local Trading Standards organisation, see https://www.conformance.co.uk/ce-marking/67-ce-directives/specialisms/259-electromagnetic-compatibil...

I would submit a formal complaint to both these organisations, including your evidence, that the factory is probably failing to meet their legal obligations and ask then to test for non compliance and if appropriate take enforcement action.

[#11]

I'd like to be proved wrong, but as I understand it, those conformance regulations apply only to the manufacturer of the product as it comes off the production line.

If an item subsequently causes problems in the field, the owner is under no such obligation to correct it.

[#12]

Though worth a try, I suspect that this applies to equipment manufacturers not operators of equipment. It would be reasonable to assume (a) this is old equipment predating the regulations and / or (b) the equipment has become defective with age and was compliant when manufactured.

The best that one can hope for is that the engagement of BTOR an an ‘official’ visit might bring about a change in disposition.

Edit: @198kHz beat me to it.

[#13]

Seems like a good way forward.

One would hope that the owner of the interference source assumes that corrective action is required, and that BTOR don't correct that belief.

[#14]

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@198kHz wrote:

I'd like to be proved wrong, but as I understand it, those conformance regulations apply only to the manufacturer of the product as it comes off the production line.

If an item subsequently causes problems in the field, the owner is under no such obligation to correct it.

---

I agree it is a grey area. When the EMC Directive first came out I was a member of a CE Marking Club. One of the committee members was a Trading Standards Officer and he was unsure on many aspects. When on one occasion I pressed him for an opinion his response was an offer to prosecute my company so that a judge could give a definitive answer. I declined his kind offer!

Anyway, I digress. If someone in authority decided that EMI exceeded limits I would expect the factory to be ordered to disconnect the errant equipment regardless of who was responsible.

Maybe just the threat of reporting the nuisance, now the correct authorities are identified could fix the issue?

[#15]

@Baldrick1  wrote

Maybe just the threat of reporting the nuisance, now the correct authorities are identified could fix the issue?

One would hope so, but -

This Ofcom page appears to confirm what I thought - specifically these paragraphs:

Wires, cables and wired devices

Interference to wired communications may be caused by other electrical apparatus nearby. It can result in disconnections or line errors.

Conversely, wires and cables can produce electromagnetic disturbance that interferes with nearby radio receivers.

Ofcom does not undertake investigations into these types of interference. It is not our policy and we do not have the required powers that would allow for us to do so effectively. The Wireless Telegraphy Act 2006 only gives us powers in relation to interference to wireless telegraphy caused by apparatus. This does not include interference to fixed telephone exchanges and broadband services, nor interference caused by wires and cables.