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Silver - Disconnections and slow speed

silver
Grafter
Posts: 51
Registered: 26-06-2014

Silver - Disconnections and slow speed

Curious Barry as to where you are since this sounds like the same problem I am having.
Raised it as a question and the response was to buy a new router!
Not sure I have anywhere near the technical skills to follow all the info in this thread sadly so maybe I didn't supply enough techy data.
My connection just seems to come and go at will now for minutes or hours and at other times it takes so long to load a page I begin to think it's gone again and then it gradually loads.
I am dubious it is the router (BT Voyager) as this is a problem I have had before but always on a Friday evening or weekend when I have assumed the system is busy?
I certainly can't take this much longer for anything important I'm heading out to coffee places with WiFi.

Silv
121 REPLIES
Superuser
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Silver - Disconnections and slow speed

Hi Silver,
Welcome to the forums.  Sorry to hear that you are having similar problems to Barry.  I have asked the forum moderators to move your post on to a separate thread so that help for Barry does not get confused with help for you.  Lets try a few simple questions...
Is your router connected to your master socket or an extension?
Is your phone line noisy?  Have you got a good clear dial tone?  If you dial 17070 and select option 2 you should hear silence.  If you have noises, crackles squeals then there is a phone fault which needs fixing.

Kevin
silver
Grafter
Posts: 51
Registered: 26-06-2014

Silver - Disconnections and slow speed

Hi, thanks.
So glad have found the forum!
Router is connected to the master socket.  
Phone line sounds quiet to me - there may be some background noise if listen very very hard but nothing at all obvious and certainly no crackles or squeals.
Phew a non-technical start thankfully
Er, if my posts have gone to a separate thread will it be obvious where I find them?

Silv
Community Veteran
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Registered: 15-06-2007

Re: Silver - Disconnections and slow speed

Posts split off to its own thread
Plusnet Staff
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Re: Silver - Disconnections and slow speed

Thanks Oldjim Smiley
@silver - I've just taken a look at your line and your line is what we called 'Banded'. This basically means that your line speeds have been lowered to try and keep your connection stable, that's why you might have noticed a fewer drops recently. Here's a graph of your connection:
<img src="http://community.plus.net/visualradius/generated/image14038582274119.png"/>
So that we can rule out a potential Internal Wiring issue, can you connect your router directly into your Test Socket as shown here: http://www.plus.net/support/broadband/master-socket-guide.shtml#whatsTest?
If the disconnections continue, connecting a different microfilter would also help.
Chris Pettitt
Cloud Environments Engineer
silver
Grafter
Posts: 51
Registered: 26-06-2014

Re: Silver - Disconnections and slow speed

Hi Chris
Thanks, Just looked at the link you gave and I don't seem to have a test socket. I have the other sort - LJU was it? It is probably the original master socket as I've certainly not had it changed in the last decade hence an older design. Router goes into a microfilter which goes into this master socket. (Realise my answer to Kevin might have been confusing there - I thought he was asking if the router went into the master socket not an extension farther away. I didn't mention the microfilter as I wasn't aware there were master sockets that had the slots for phone and broadband line)

Assume the next step is to get a new micro filter and try that? Will do that this weekend.

I have had less drops in connection over the past 24 hours, presumably because it is 'banded'.  Given that how will I be able to tell if a new micro filter is actually resolving the problem?

Silv
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Re: Silver - Disconnections and slow speed

If your socket looks like this, it should have a test port, revealed by unscrewing and removing the lower section, like this.
If your master socket looks like this then there are, as they say, no user serviceable parts inside.
Superuser
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Re: Silver - Disconnections and slow speed

Hi Sliver,
For information, the DCT (Chris & Co) are nit around over the weekends, so they will not be able to answer your question or tell if there is an improvement.  With a little hand holding you can find out for yourself by looking at your router stats and copy and paste them here.
The slow speeds thread at the top of this forum https://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,96155.0.html has information on how to find your stats.
Kevin
silver
Grafter
Posts: 51
Registered: 26-06-2014

Re: Silver - Disconnections and slow speed



 
Thanks for that Kevin

Not sure what any of it means or whether good or bad - assume the downstream line rate is the speed my connection is working at but 'line attenuation'?


Line Mode ADSL2+ Line State Show Time
Latency Type Interleave Line Up Time 01:01:43:54
Line Coding Trellis On Line Up Count 193

Statistics Downstream Upstream
Line Rate 6652 Kbps 1256 Kbps
Noise Margin 6.9 dB 5.8 dB
Line Attenuation 33.5 dB 18.9 dB
Output Power 0.0 dBm 12.4 dBm

This is with the current microfilter.

Silv
Superuser
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Re: Silver - Disconnections and slow speed

Hi Silver,
These figures are not good.
The line attenuation of 33.5dB suggests that your line should (download) synch (on ADSL 2+) at about 13Mbos - you have got half of that.  Understanding why this is the case needs information from PlusNET.  The noise margin figure (aka SNRM) is confusing - it reports the current value and does not tie-in with the synch speed.  I'd guess (it is a guess) that the line has been 'speed banded' due to line problems.  Conversely the upload synch speed is about the best you can get.
I note that there is a very distinct pattern to your disconnection graph.  Aside from the weekend, there are very few disconnections before lunch time.  Is there anything in the home which gets switched on around lunch time and off early evening during the week?  Is there a take-away nearby which matches these hours?  It is possible that something is generating electrical noise which is interfering with the broadband service.  This could come from nearly anything from a TV to extractor fans.  This is known as REIN and can be very difficult to track down / eliminate, but let's cross that bridge when we need to.
Can you try a new filter as requested by Chris, however if the line has been banded, I doubt you will see an improvement without PN intervention.  If you have not already done so, I'd raise a slow speed fault report here - http://faults.plus.net
Kevin
silver
Grafter
Posts: 51
Registered: 26-06-2014

Re: Silver - Disconnections and slow speed

Hi Kevin
Chris did say the line had been 'banded' to lessen disconnections in his reply yesterday - does that make these figures unreliable?
Not sure when the banding took place which presumeably could affect the graph. The line has certainly been more reliable, if slow, since I joined the forum and raised the issue.
I understand this affects the speed so am I correct in thinking that raising another fault re slow speed might not be appropriate?

I must admit I find the Plusnet site very difficult to navigate re reporting problems. I raised a question with the support people, which I thought was the way to go, and as I said in my first post they simply told me to buy a new router from them! It was only when I discovered the forum that I realised more help might exist.

As for the pattern I am stumped on that one. No take-aways near by - a quiet residential street. The houses are small Victorian terraces (the list of routers when I put wi-fi on is very long) so I guess neighbours might be doing something at regular times that could be picked up in my house but that doesn't seem anything I can check. There is a mast at the top of the hill that is gradually getting more stuff put on it - when I first moved in it seemed to have nothing much on it now it resembles an overdressed xmas tree without the  pretty lights! Again there is not much I can do about this. Go cable?Huh

Prior to this problem I often lost connection on a Friday evening - I learnt not to play with the router/filter etc and wait until the next day when the connection would be back. Ditto Sundays were always iffy. I assumed it was volume of people using, not that I was particularly happy about it.

I was hoping to upgrade to an unlimited package with phone over the summer but am reluctant to do that while these problems still exist

Failed to get a new filter locally today so will have to try somewhere else next week. Can't believe I couldn"t find anywhere that sold them.

Any chance of an dummy level explanation on banding? Why would this mean that I would need PN intervention to get improvement from a new filter? What would they have to do?

Many thanks for all your help.

Silv
Superuser
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Re: Silver - Disconnections and slow speed

Remove the banding / restriction on the line.
Will come back with an explanation tomorrow.
Superuser
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Re: Silver - Disconnections and slow speed

Hi Silver,
Quote from: silver
Any chance of an dummy level explanation on banding? Why would this mean that I would need PN intervention to get improvement from a new filter? What would they have to do?

Before explaining banding, it is useful to understand a little about the relationship between Noise Margin (SNRM), synch speed and data speed and how the ADSL is managed.  There are a number of subtle differences on different service types, but for the purpose of a simple description the following will suffice.
SNRM is a measure of how well the communication signal can be "heard" above the background noise.  You've experienced trying to communicate with a friend in a noisy environment, sometime to be understood you have to shout louder and slow down what you are saying.  Broadband is just the same a higher SNRM (shouting louder) requires the communication to be slowed down (slower synch speed) - all of this is managed by BTOR's Dynamic Lime Management (DLM) systems.  The DLM "knows" how your line has performed of recent times and sets a TARGET SNRM (loudness) for your line.
When your router tries to synch-up with BTOR's exchange equipment the DLM tells it what SNRM to use (how loud) and the router and the exchange work out the best speed at that SNRM.  Whilst then working, electrical interference can come and go; the speed will stay the same but the CURRENT SNRM will vary - upwards is noise goes away, downwards if noise increases.  If the increase is too much, the connection will fail and the line will need to resynch.  If this happens too often the DLM will decide to change the TARGET SNRM to a higher (louder) value, leading to a slower synch speed.  The DLM can adjust the TARGET SNRM up or down in 3dB increments.
After a number repeated disconnection events, the DLM can decide to not allow a connection above a certain speed - this is called banding.  The one bit of the story I do not understand is when / why the DLM speed bands a line rather than just increasing the TARGET SNRM.
I also looked around for an explanation of banding.  The following is from kitz.co.uk (Kitz is a regular on here) which though a little mature in areas is an excellent discourse on the delivery of ADSL - some bits are very straight forwards, whilst other bits are very detailed.  Have a dip in and out - enjoy what you understand and don't worry about the rest!
Quote from: http
WBC Banded Profiles apply to adsl lines on BTs 21CN network such as adsl2+.  
Banded profiles may be applied to lines that have difficulty maintaining sync at the higher speeds.  The theory is to stop lines initially syncing too high at a speed which cannot be sustained and would normally encounter frequent disconnections and slow throughput speeds due to a high number of errors on the line which causes data to be retransmitted.

Read more: http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/IPprofile.htm#ixzz362N6XcKs

Once banding is applied, it sticks until removed by intervention - which is why just replacing the filter will not improve matters greatly.
For a 33dB attenuated line, you should get around 13Mbps at a SNRM of 6dB.  You are seeing 6652Kbps at 6.9dB which is just under the 6656Kbps banding.  I thus conclude that (for whatever reason) your line is speed banded.

Kevin
wo0x
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Registered: 31-05-2013

Re: Silver - Disconnections and slow speed

Quote from: Townman
upwards is noise goes away, downwards if noise increases.

What does it mean if SNRM increases by 3db for a short period when the target is 15db and the SNRM has been constantly 15-15.2db? I only ask because I have noticed this on a single occasion with my line. How can noise that apparently isn't there, go anywhere - just an anomaly or something to be concerned about?
Superuser
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Re: Silver - Disconnections and slow speed

Assuming that there has not been a resynch associated with the 3dB shift, it means exactly the same thing.  The noise level has subsided for awhile and then returned.
If you are running at 15dB then there is a strong possibility that your are encountering REIN.