Should I opt-out of the move to 21CN & "up to 20Mb"?

[#1]

Based on my own experience, 2000 to 2500 CRC or HEC errors a day is regarded by the 20CN DLM as "tolerable". Resetting the line would reduce target noise margin and give a higher sync speed, but likely increase those error rates to "excessive" levels. The DLM will respond by increasing target noise margin again, possibly back to where you are now.
However there's only one way to find out which is to try it - if you can tolerate two or three weeks of possible disconnections.
As for whether you should accept the 20CN to 21CN upgrade - might be best to stay where you are for the present - the 21CN DLM has a reputation for being rather aggressive, as possibly your referrals discovered.
I shall have to make a similar decision myself shortly, but my sync on 12dB target noise margin is 5984kbps (connected for 30 days). I shall probably go for it.

[#2]

Quote from: spraxyt

However there's only one way to find out which is to try it - if you can tolerate two or three weeks of possible disconnections.

I'd be inclined to agree with that statement, so let me know if you want to give it a go.

[#3]

Quote

my sync on 12dB target noise margin is 5984kbps (connected for 30 days). I shall probably go for it.

Spraxyt, my figures are very similar to yours (S/N 12 - 14db, sync 5920, but clocking up just under 10,000 CRC errors per day) so I would be very interested to hear how you get on with the switch to 21CN. My exchange seems to be fully enabled but PN haven't offered to migrate me yet.

[#4]

I'm confused!   
On Wed 4th, I got this email:

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We have good news for you. The exchange equipment we use to provide your service has now been upgraded, and we can offer you a faster 'upto 20Mb' service. You don't need to do anything, and we'll switch you over automatically, for free. We expect this to happen within the next 5 weeks. There may be a brief drop in connection for about 5 minutes on the day of the change, and you may see varying speeds for the first few days after we've upgraded you. This is expected, and is nothing to worry about. Please note: you may receive messages advising on the progress of your order over the next 5 weeks. If you receive a message notifying you that the order has failed, don't worry - you don't need to contact us and your service will continue as normal. We've created an FAQ for the upgrade here: http://community.plus.net/faster-plusnet-broadband-for-free-faq/ If you have any further questions please raise a ticket by going to http://help.plus.net Kind Regards,

So, given my conversation in this thread, I logged in to the "Questions" section to find the above email in a new, open, question (no. 42270064).  I replied there this morning with:

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Hello there. As "Customers receiving speeds under 4Mb may not see a significant improvement, and in some cases can see greater instability." I would therefore like to OPT-OUT. I have discussed this on the forums: http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,94033.0.html I am also concerned that this will have an effect on my current intermittent fault (question no. 41876590). Your message doesn't seem to fit with what you said would happen in your FAQ: "we’ll email you prior to placing the order to move your service to ADSL2+." - it seems from your message that you have already placed the order. "This email will provide more information about the timescale of your order and information about how to opt-out if you’d prefer not to have the upgrade" - your message does not mention the option to opt-out, nor does it describe how to do so. Yours,

And I got this response this evening:

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Thank you for your query. We will be processing the upgrade to 21CN for all of our customers as a mass upgrade. We will upgrade all customers at the same time. We can confirm that this should not effect your connection, the posts that you read are not specific to each user. There problems only occur on certain connections. If after the upgrade has been processed and you do experience any problems please do not hesitate to get back in touch and we will look into this further for you. I hope this helps. Please do not hesitate to get back in touch online at http://contactus.plus.net or by phone on 0845 140 0200 if we can be of further assistance. Kind regards,

Hopefully you can see why I am confused - not only does the email seem to be different from what the FAQ leads me to expect, it now seems it directly contradicts it, and there is no opt-out at all.
Please help clarify the situation.
Thanks.

[#5]

Hi snozboz,
I'm a bit confused too. I can tell you categorically that you can opt out and stay on 20CN. If you reply to that ticket then I'll make sure it's actioned correctly. I'll feedback to the agent so they have the correct understanding of the migration.
Jojo

[#6]

Thanks JoJo - I have just replied to the ticket.
I hope you will also address the problems with the original email, as I pointed out originally.  It:

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doesn't seem to fit with what you said would happen in your FAQ: "we’ll email you prior to placing the order to move your service to ADSL2+." - it seems from your message that you have already placed the order. "This email will provide more information about the timescale of your order and information about how to opt-out if you’d prefer not to have the upgrade" - your message does not mention the option to opt-out, nor does it describe how to do so.

Thanks.

[#7]

?! 
Just been told on my ticket that the regrade order is in progress and due to complete today, so I can't opt-out.  Given that I first tried to opt-out 1 day after receiving the initial email, this is totally unacceptable.  Just because it's taken 5 further days for someone who knows what they are doing to try and action it... isn't my fault.
Here is the rest of the history of the ticket, (which I notice was closed by the CSC the same day they responded).
6.30pm Friday 6th May
I said:

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As requested by Joanne Pilson on the forum: http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,94033.msg805326.html#msg805326 I am replying again to OPT-OUT. As I said previously, I also think your original email was misleading.

3:45pm, Saturday 7 May 2011
CSC said:

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I will forward this to the correct department for you. <snip - usual politenesses and how to get in touch> INTERNAL Unsure as to pool, please ensure upgrade does not happen

2:39pm, Tuesday 10 May 2011 (Almost 72 hours later than previous response)
CSC said:

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A regrade order is in progress and scheduled to complete today. There is no lead time to request a successful cancellation of the order. Once the order completes, if you wish to return to 20CN please let us know. <snip - usual politenesses and how to get in touch>

[#8]

Hi snozboz,
I'm really sorry we have been unable to stop this going through. At this late stage by cancelling there is a possibility that you may lose internet altogether, so that's not an option. Once it does complete we can place a reverse order to have it put back which normally takes 5 working days to complete. I know it shouldn't have got to this point and I apologise that the process has failed you. I will be advising all agents of the correct procedure so that this doesn't happen again.
Jojo

[#9]

Quote from: Joanne

I'm really sorry we have been unable to stop this going through.

Thank you for the apology.  I'm still annoyed that both the original CSC agent, and then you, didn't try to opt me out.  (As you said you would do in your earlier message

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Quote from: Joanne If you reply to that ticket then I'll make sure it's actioned correctly.

)  It wasn't just the process that failed me.
When you say:

Quote from: Joanne

Once it does complete we can place a reverse order to have it put back which normally takes 5 working days to complete.

what do you mean? According to the FAQ,

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Once your line has been moved from our 20CN (old network) to our 21CN (new network) there is no simple migration path back, we can however move you to an up to 8Mb service on 21CN if you’d prefer. This will be done on a case by case basis as part of our faults process.

So it looks like I have been permanently moved to 21CN, (even if you move me back to 8Mbps using a reverse order), even though I opted-out...?
Or is this yet another way in which the FAQ does not reflect reality?  I notice you have not responded to my points about the FAQ being contradicted by the original email, let alone what actually happened:

Quote from: snozboz

Quote doesn't seem to fit with what you said would happen in your FAQ: "we’ll email you prior to placing the order to move your service to ADSL2+." - it seems from your message that you have already placed the order. "This email will provide more information about the timescale of your order and information about how to opt-out if you’d prefer not to have the upgrade" - your message does not mention the option to opt-out, nor does it describe how to do so.

Yet another example of this is:

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we’ll be in touch via email at least 2 weeks before we move you across

Ignoring the fact that you and the CSC agent failed to opt me out, I was still sent the original email on the 4th May and transferred on 10th.

[#10]

Since the change is happening anyway, and assuming Plusnet agree this is without prejudice to the option to move back to 20CN, I think it would be worthwhile giving 21CN/ADSL2+ a try. That will provide an answer to your question based on real experience rather than conjecture.
At the time you originally asked about opting out my personal feeling (for your connection stats) was that the balance  was around 40% to upgrade, 60% stay where you were (opt out). And you chose to opt out. With 21CN/ADSL2+ maturing as a service I think the balance is perhaps 60% upgrade, 40% opt out now.. (I speak as someone who has been on ADSL2+ for 6 weeks.)
Soon it appears the DLM system on ADSL2+ will be changing to calculate IP Profiles on the fly (at sync time) with the potential for slightly higher throughput as a result of this. The long drawn out slow-speed drudge from a dropped connection and low speed sync also goes away. I'd be inclined to give it a try.

[#11]

To clarify.
The move to 21CN doesn't need to be a move to ADSL2+.
I was moved to 21CN and opted out of ADSL2+ because I wouldn't see any speed improvement and the aggressive DLM could easily have caused an effective reduction.
From the results on my BT speed tests I appear to have the benefit of the IP profile change so it certainly seems to be a 21CN feature not ADSL2+

[#12]

Sorry to thread invade!
Is it possible for me to opt in for ADSL2 if 21CN is not currently available in my area?

[#13]

Nope sorry it is only available on a 21CN enabled exchange

[#14]

Ok thanks for that, is there any place i can look to see if its even planned and an eta? or sign for it in my area?

[#15]

Put your post code or telephone number in  http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange_search or http://usertools.plus.net/exchanges/