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Request for BTW IP profile to be reset

AndyH
Grafter
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Registered: ‎27-10-2012

Re: Request for BTW IP profile to be reset

The Openreach engineer resets the line - this will reset the DLM and cause a line resync. Once this happens, a new sync speed should be generated and this information will be sent to the BRAS/MSE which then sets a new IP Profile.
Openreach engineers should not have access to BTW's network (in terms of a FTTC install etc)
Edit: From the BT SINet for FTTC:
Quote
The upstream and downstream VDSL2 data rate is reported to the CP BRAS/Radius upon PPP discovery. The VDSL2 rate states the upper rate at which Ethernet traffic can be transmitted on the link. This traffic comprises of:
• A 4 byte per frame overhead added by Openreach for internal routing,
• A degree of overhead introduced by DSL (Packet Transfer Mode layer),
• The EU traffic sent from the CP, or from the EU.
As a result of these overheads, the actual achievable throughput in bits per second is dependent on the reported VDSL2 rate and frame size of the data being transmitted.  Openreach advise CPs to consider carefully how they interpret the reported VDSL2  rate in relation to the services they sell, the specifics on an individual EU's use of the service, and any impacts of their own network.
For example, if the reported downstream VDSL2 data rate is 40,000 kbit/s and the IP packet size is 1500 bytes (i.e. Ethernet frame size at End User LAN is 1514 bytes) the maximum throughput achievable is actually 39,178 kbit/s (when measured at the EU LAN i.e. no VLAN header, but including Ethernet header). Alternatively, if the IP packet size is 64 bytes the maximum throughput achievable is further reduced to 35,721 kbit/s. This overhead is particularly important to consider in respect to the downstream shaper setting on the CP’s BRAS. CPs are advised to understand and account for the method that their BRAS uses to implement traffic shaping.
CPs should also be aware of the following:
• Where Openreach has provided and is managing the modem, daily status reports will be generated and transmitted consisting of no more than 8k bytes (64k bits) of data upstream at full line rate. These flows will take priority over EU data. The impact clearly depends on the VDSL2 traffic rate at the time. 

• There will be occasional firmware upgrades which will involve reasonable volumes of traffic (M bytes). Openreach will report to CPs when these are scheduled across the GEA network.
deathtrap
Grafter
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Registered: ‎23-04-2013

Re: Request for BTW IP profile to be reset

Well  The Modem has re synced  3 times now if i include the re-sync caused by DLM But the Profile is stuck, because it hasn't updated, Some one  be it wholesale or openreach has to take responsibility for this ,
AndyH
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Registered: ‎27-10-2012

Re: Request for BTW IP profile to be reset

Try dropping your connection and re-connecting again.
Edit: I think the IP Profile has been updated - it's just not displaying properly on the PT (which has a lot of issues) and maybe not sent to PN yet? If PN bumped your line speed to 77.43 then I think you should be fine.
deathtrap
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Re: Request for BTW IP profile to be reset

Disconnecting the modem hasn't helped  I don't want to disconnect it at all, i shouldn't have to, I may attempt it again but not until tomorrow, as i don't want DLM interpreting these forced disconnects as an issue and  intervening without any just reason
If the the IP profile  issue was as you are suggesting only a display issue with the PT  then i would still expect my throughput to be higher, because my Plusnet IP profile was / is set to what my sync was prior to DLM  acting earlier today , 73.8mbps  , But  whilst downloading  the increase in latency has remain higher than it would be if the level of throughput was being restricted by the plusnet profile, due to how the traffic prioritisation works,  I have tested this previously so i know , It showed the same increase whilst downloading  after plusnet at my request set the ip profile to 78, because it was only being restricted by the BTW ip Profile, just as it is now,  if the traffic prioritisation was totally removed  then the latency increase would be lower, normally when everything is set at the default ie 77.44 bt w side, and 77.4 plusnet  the increase in latency is 1ms or less whilst downloading utilising the full throughput, a similar increase in latency has been observed when the max throughput isn't available (peak times) of some days, and when connected to some end points
AndyH
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Registered: ‎27-10-2012

Re: Request for BTW IP profile to be reset

I didn't say anything about disconnecting the modem. Disconnect your connection to PN from your router and reconnect.
It's quite hard to read what you've written there - but to me, it looks like the PN line speed needs to be updated. You should not be able to download at a rate higher than your IP Profile - the fact that you can, indicates to me that the IP Profile is actually higher than being displayed on the BTW PT.
deathtrap
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Re: Request for BTW IP profile to be reset

Makes no difference i did it 1hr ago , The BTW IP profile is stuck ,So until that is fixed  all the reboots of the router in the world won't make any difference,
Although  for some reason last week  rebooting the router repeatedly in order to get onto a good endpoint /gateway  was according to  the answers in my tickets seen as disconnections(loss of sync) Huh and the plusnet profile  was changed(lowered) which i complained about  in another thread
I have been told that powering off the modem for 25/30mins sometimes can unstick an IP profile, but how reliable  this actually is i can't say
Pettitto
Plusnet Alumni (retired)
Plusnet Alumni (retired)
Posts: 6,346
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Registered: ‎26-11-2011

Re: Request for BTW IP profile to be reset

The reason that the IP Profile hasn't updated yet is because DLM doesn't work on the fly as it does on ADSL. It's important to remember that they do NOT work in the same way.
On this connection, there's a need for Interleaving to be switched off, perhaps that's for gaming, or for other services which requires low latency. The case here is that, the line errors with Interleaving Off, but with Interleaving on Low on the downstream direction, the line performs well and absolutely fine - DLM is doing exactly what it should do. Whether or not you want Interleaving on or off, isn't something we have any control over at present.
It's almost impossible to run a line at 80M with Interleaving on, which is why you'll find the circuits that have Interleaving on run at 74M. As Interleaving has been on this line before, a 'Caution Counters' have been set which means that the line status is likely to change depending on stability. I'll explain more about Caution Counters when I write documentation up on FTTC DLM.
A couple of questions that I'd like to ask the wider community regarding the speed on FTTC and please bear in mind that I appreciate that everyone uses their connection for different things, so I'd like to try and keep this as constructive as possible, whilst remaining realistic.

What can you do on a 74M line that you can't do on a 60M line?


Is the additional 8ms latency causing that much of a problem? If so, how and why?


I think FTTC is all about setting the right expectation, and it really doesn't matter what ISP you go to in essence, because any ISP that uses the same BT Network and infrastructure will use exactly the same DLM, exactly the same Cabinet, the only major difference may be, is the policy that you're put on by the ISP (Speed/Stable/Super Stable).
The right expectation is, that FTTC isn't a guaranteed 80M service, there are a lot of things that getting the perfect line depends on; Line Quality, External Interference, Crosstalk, D-side copper/aluminium quality - the list goes on. It's important to understand that whilst we want and aim to deliver the best possible service, that in realistic terms, you may not get the speeds and quality that you want. We'll do our best to ensure that any genuine faults are fixed, but if, for example an external third party source of REIN has caused Interleaving to go and your speeds should be 60M but have dipped to 40M this isn't indicative of a fault, it's indicative that there's an external interference issue, but is outside of both Plusnet's and BT Openreach's control. People may argue that more should be done, but nobody can be forced to remove their own electrical equipment if they don't want to.
If this line in particular continued to run without Interleaving on, the line would error and would be very vulnerable to poor performance. DLM puts Interleaving on, which add an extra 8ms (shouldn't be a problem) and the line will work fine from there. Perhaps the line experiences irregular amounts of REIN which we're not aware of? Something is causing the errors on the line. Interleaving on Low is enough to correct the amount of errors we've seen on this line, so DLM is happy and takes no further action.
Everybody uses their line for different things, so yes you may see a slightly lower speed when downloading, that's a valid point, but what would you prefer? A fast but unstable line, or would you prefer the full speeds and your connection dropping out when the errors become too much the line.
There are calls for ISP's to have more control over DLM so that we can do more - this, I agree. This isn't being ignored, it's very much being listened to by ISP's across the UK as well as our suppliers and BT Openreach. Discussions have taken place to find out what tools we all would find would be of benefit and things will progress from there.
Resetting DLM all the time for a quick fix, isn't the way forward; this will ultimately send you around in a big loop. It will remove Interleaving and your line will be operating at the maximum speeds the line can take, with errors. Once your line starts to error again, DLM will kick in, your line will be marked down on the Caution Counter and DLM will start to take the measures required to keep your line stable whilst trying to provide good speeds.
With regards to DLM itself; it actually hardly needs to touch that many lines, throughout the UK, it only touches around 2% of all lines. Lines that have never had DLM had to intervene don't get closely monitored by DLM. If your line has, a snapshot of your line is taken once per day and this uploaded through DLM and the DLM (usually around midnight) software will dictate what speed band/Interleaving level, if any is required to keep your line operating at it's optimum. Any changes that are made are made between 3am-5am to keep the impact it has on customers minimal. This will answer the question about why the IP Profile hasn't updated - the sync rate has changed but the data hasn't been collected and the next batch of changes will go through tonight. So if the line remains stable, the IP Profile will be updated when all the data is collected tonight and the change will be implemented between 3am-5am.
It would be great if DLM could update this on the fly, but it doesn't. BT Openreach are reviewing how the current DLM system works and they are aware that it's not most effective as it is, there are plans for this to be reviewed (ongoing). If you have any specific questions surrounding this or want to know more, I'll be writing up a guide soon which explains how FTTC DLM works and it will cover why it does what it does.
We're by no means saying that most issues aren't issues, that's really not the case, but it's absolutely key that we set an expectation of what FTTC DLM is doing and why.
deathtrap
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Registered: ‎23-04-2013

Re: Request for BTW IP profile to be reset

The BTW IP profile is supposed to update following action taken by DLM  it has failed to ajust the IP profile, that is a fault, iv'e had it confirmed by two other ISP's would you like me to ring and ask more ISP's if they see this as a fault and would be prepared to raise this with BT  be that openreach or wholesale 
Pettitto
Plusnet Alumni (retired)
Plusnet Alumni (retired)
Posts: 6,346
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Registered: ‎26-11-2011

Re: Request for BTW IP profile to be reset

That's not how it works.
Quote
This will answer the question about why the IP Profile hasn't updated - the sync rate has changed but the data hasn't been collected and the next batch of changes will go through tonight. So if the line remains stable, the IP Profile will be updated when all the data is collected tonight and the change will be implemented between 3am-5am.
AndyH
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Registered: ‎27-10-2012

Re: Request for BTW IP profile to be reset

@ deathtrap - Which ISPs told you that?
npr
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Re: Request for BTW IP profile to be reset

Quote from: Chris

A couple of questions that I'd like to ask the wider community regarding the speed on FTTC and please bear in mind that I appreciate that everyone uses their connection for different things, so I'd like to try and keep this as constructive as possible, whilst remaining realistic.

What can you do on a 74M line that you can't do on a 60M line?


Is the additional 8ms latency causing that much of a problem? If so, how and why?



Would like the chance to find out?
My fibre is capped at 18mbps down and 0.495mbps up with little prospects of getting anything done about it. The really annoying thing here is PN appearing to be on the side of their supplier and not their customer.
Couldn't care less about the 8ms latency but I'm sure gamers will, rightly, think otherwise.
deathtrap
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Re: Request for BTW IP profile to be reset

Quote
Is the additional 8ms latency causing that much of a problem? If so, how and why?
It does cause issues when the server you have to connect to is located in Canada, and the peering that was once quite good gets changed  increasing the latency  to levels that are borderline for online game play when on fast path, And some of us don't enjoy sub 10ms latency to the 1st hop, due to our geographic location  mine is 12-13ms to 1st hop on fast path 20-21ms  with your 8ms of added lag,
Quote
think FTTC is all about setting the right expectation, and it really doesn't matter what ISP you go to in essence, because any ISP that uses the same BT Network and infrastructure will use exactly the same DLM, exactly the same Cabinet, the only major difference may be, is the policy that you're put on by the ISP (Speed/Stable/Super Stable).
Not quite true, As there is also the GEA option that Sky and Talk Talk  and Zen use, that does not have an IP profile or use BT 's network, because it uses their own networks  The GEA option is now available to any isp  as an option if they wish to invest a lot of money  which nt require  in order from the isp's to have that type of service
Quote
This will answer the question about why the IP Profile hasn't updated - the sync rate has changed but the data hasn't been collected and the next batch of changes will go through tonight. So if the line remains stable, the IP Profile will be updated when all the data is collected tonight and the change will be implemented between 3am-5am.
Very odd , Funny in the time that i have had this FTTC connection  this has never happen before, no disrespect  intended, but it sounds like something you have just made up to get me off your case, Sorry i find that hard to belive
jelv
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Re: Request for BTW IP profile to be reset

So how on earth do people on ADSL manage to play games? My connection is super stable, synced at the maximum possible for my exchange, I'm paying extra for faster upload, I'm on Fastpath and my latency is typically 20/21s to the first hop. There will be millions of lines with worse latency than that.
I think this page has the information you require to sort out your issues.
jelv (a.k.a Spoon Whittler)
   Why I have left Plusnet (warning: long post!)   
Broadband: Andrews & Arnold Home::1 (FTTC 80/20)
Line rental: Pulse 8 Home Line Rental (£14.40/month)
Mobile: iD mobile (£4/month)
deathtrap
Grafter
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Re: Request for BTW IP profile to be reset

@  jelv, He asked the question, i gave a genuine answer , interleave or anything else that serves to increase the latency is seen as the enemy to many serious gamers , As for leaving  i don't have any issues in doing that, but only after every available option has been exhausted , from a formal complaint  through to adr if need be
AndyH
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Re: Request for BTW IP profile to be reset

Quote from: deathtrap
Not quite true, As there is also the GEA option that Sky and Talk Talk  and Zen use, that does not have an IP profile or use BT 's network, because it uses their own networks  The GEA option is now available to any isp  as an option if they wish to invest a lot of money  which nt require  in order from the isp's to have that type of service

This isn't right - GEA-FTTC, GEA-FTTP and GEA-Multicast just means that any ISP can use Openreach's NGA network (as long as they have their back hauls connected to the exchange). BT Wholesale buy GEA access from Openreach and resell it to ISPs like Plusnet.
ISPs that have their own backhaul have to have their own equivalent of an IP Profile - say Joe Bloggs is on 80/20 but syncs at 20/5Mbps - how would the ISP know what speed to send data to his line without an IP Profile?