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REIN

maranello
Pro
Posts: 1,062
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Registered: ‎11-01-2008

REIN

A near neighbour (two houses down from the house opposite) runs a small motorcycle repair/servicing business from home. He's got some Heath Robinson arrangements to get power to his workshop which is in the rear garden, but occasionally does work on his front driveway. Some of this work involves welding by electric arc. Telephone lines run underground under the pavement on his side of the road, and the line from my house runs diagonally across the road to the telegraph pole in front of the next house along from this neighbour.
Just a wild guess, but could this be a source of REIN?
My other car isn't a Ferrari
36 REPLIES
prichardson
Grafter
Posts: 1,503
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Registered: ‎05-04-2007

Re: REIN

There is a very high chance this will cause REIN. It used to cause me a nightmare are my parents house as my father is a welder by trade.
BT actually quote arc welding as a cause of REIN. Some others we have come across are electric fences, sodium street lights and moths bumping into an outdoor security light.
Mal08
Rising Star
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Registered: ‎20-08-2008

Re: REIN

Does this person have planning approval for running such a business from home ?
Maybe a discrete call to the council and the health and safety executive - re the wiring ?
maranello
Pro
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Re: REIN

It's a sensitive issue, trying to strike a balance between being good neighbours and making sure that our home life is not affected. By and large we are on good speaking terms and have similar interests. He is mindful of the impact of his business and happy to discuss with anyone if there is a problem. Dealing with problems this way has been more effective than getting the Council's Local Environment Enforcement Officers involved, although they continue to regularly monitor the impact of this business on the local area, and inspect how he disposes of waste oil, stores parts (mostly second hand as he specialises on older models) and premises health and safety (he has an apprentice).
But if there is now an impact on my broadband (and if other neighbours are similarly affected) due to his operations I would like to gather evidence/proof before I speak to him about it.
My other car isn't a Ferrari
Community Veteran
Posts: 3,789
Registered: ‎08-06-2007

Re: REIN

I would be more of the opinion of engaging with him to determine whether he is the source of interference.
Certainly this is one thing that I used to have to do when transmitting on the 2m band and neighbours detected interference.  It's much better to work together to come to a solution than involve those 'higher up' without first trying to reach a resolution.
Ideally, set up a test where you have a good sync, and he can start the arc welder under controlled circumstances.    If you can visibly detect a drop in SNR that is bad enough to cause potential resyncs then this is fairly categoric proof of interference.
Thus armed with this information, you can approach PN (and ultimately BT) and ask them what can be done to alleviate this as a source of REIN.  It may mean fitting special 'chokes' on your line, or it may involve advising your neighbour as to any modifications he can make to his welding equipment (choking the mains power may be an option, although I'm not overly conversant with ways of preventing interference of this manner!)
HTH
B.
Mal08
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Registered: ‎20-08-2008

Re: REIN

Oh yes - sorry - I didn't mean any adversarial contact - of course work with the guy and help him.
hope it works out amicably
maranello
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Re: REIN

Thanks guys for the advice and comments.
For the moment all I will do is glance out the window from time to time and if I see any welding taking place I can power up the PC and check for SNR variation on the router stats. Have been doing the same as street lights power up.
However, this would not explain the resyncs that have occurred overnight. I anticipate that any evidence I can gather will not be conclusive. But at least it is encouraging that there is something that can be done by BT. I didn't know about choking the line, I was thinking along the lines that either the cables were screened and that some breakdown had occured, or that if the existing cables did not have any screening that they could be replaced with screened cable.
My other car isn't a Ferrari
Community Veteran
Posts: 3,789
Registered: ‎08-06-2007

Re: REIN

If it is apparent that the welding is a source of REIN, then BT can fit an 'RF3' filter on your inbound line.
This will be fitted before, but as close as physically possible, to the NTE.
I have attached a picture of an RF3 filter.
Unfortunately, I don't know how effective an RF3 filter is against high-voltage surges like Arc welding, and I'm certainly not a qualified electrical engineer.  However, the SFI team at BT should have a qualified REIN engineer who can advise accordingly.
Another trick is to get a portable AM radio and tune it to 612Khz and wander around your house with it.  If there are any sources of interference then the radio should act as a cheap detector!
B.
johpal
Grafter
Posts: 550
Registered: ‎20-04-2008

Re: REIN

Mmm. My (long) line runs along a trunk road and past the local steelworks, using electric arc furnaces. Don't reckon they'd be too receptive to a request to "keep it down a bit".  Cheesy
maranello
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Registered: ‎11-01-2008

Re: REIN


Thanks for all the replies and advice. Here's an update.
Last Thursday (2nd Oct) I arrived home from work to find that the neighbour discussed above was using his welder. Expected to find that my connection had dropped, and was surprised that it hadn't. Did the quiet line test, in which I could hear a continuous but faint hiss, which did not seem to vary in pitch or volume whilst the welding was going on outside. Router logs showed no drop in connection since the last time on Sunday evening (28th Sep), and a SNR margin of 16.4dB downstream (pretty normal). Tried tuning the kitchen radio to 612kHz and noticed nothing untoward.
My connection dropped on Saturday (4th Oct) sometime whilst I was out between 9.30am and 5pm, and was restored using a trick of picking up the phone handset, getting a dial tone, and hanging up after 30 seconds. Noticed also whilst doing this that the hiss on the voice line was louder than before, even subsequently when doing a quiet line test after the sync had been restored. From last Sunday until this point, this was the longest continuous period of connection I have been able to achieve (or at least record) since my connection was first activated in January this year. Over this period the SNR margin varied between 9.8 and 17.8dB, based on two or three spot checks per day at different times (morning, late afternoon and around 10pm). Sync rate was 544kbps throughout.
On Sunday there were two further drops, which left me with a sync speed of 160kbps. Tried using an AM radio around the house but did not find any obvious source of electrical interference. A reboot this morning recovered the sync speed to ~600kbps, after I had noticed that it was at 288kbps with an SNR margin of 19.3dB.
Whatever is causing the noise variations appears to be intermittent, but I could not find any internal source. Another explanation could be that the rain and wind on Saturday caused the dropped connection, but in either case I'm pretty much convinced that the source is external. And at least I don't have to ask my neighbour to stop doing any welding! It appears that I need a REIN trained engineer (technician, if you prefer) to pay me a visit, and possibly fit one of those RF3 filters.
[Gentle Prod]
So I'm just waiting now for Plusnet CSC to contact me to arrange another BT SFI appointment.
My other car isn't a Ferrari
Superuser
Superuser
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Registered: ‎10-04-2007

Re: REIN

A long shot!  It just could be the router - when you have the 'hiss' on the phone, try removing the DSL connection from the rear of the Router and see if the noise changes.  I spent a frustrating 5 months or so investigating wiring / filters / external events etc only to find that it was the Router all along!  If you have (or can borrow) a spare Router give that a try.
Maurice
Community Veteran
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Registered: ‎31-08-2007

Re: REIN

I believe he's tried a different router at various stages of his problems.
maranello
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Re: REIN


That's correct - current router is third one to be tried in past 3 months.
But thanks for taking an interest in my problems.  Smiley
My other car isn't a Ferrari
James
Grafter
Posts: 21,036
Registered: ‎04-04-2007

Re: REIN

Maranello,
Have you tried raising this with your voice line supplier given the intermittent noise that you're getting on the line.
maranello
Pro
Posts: 1,062
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Registered: ‎11-01-2008

Re: REIN


I originally raised this as an intermittent fault via the broadband faults checker. In the course of resolving this the CSC have been monitoring the SNR margin on my connection and recommending a further visit by a BT SFI to check for noise rather than poor connectivity.
When I was with the Post Office as my phone provider they told me that since the noise went away when I disconnected the broadband equipment, it was outside of their responsibility!!!!
I am now with Plusnet for phone, so its down to you guys however I try to resolve it. I'm happy for you to pursue by whatever means you think will get it fixed, so long as I don't have to pay a call-out charge.
My other car isn't a Ferrari