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Noise Margin

Snarf
Grafter
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Registered: ‎04-08-2007

Noise Margin

I believe (although I may be wrong) that there's a way to set the target SNR for a line, I think this is a Plusnet CS thing though?
The problem I seem to have is that intermittently the router will connect at a reasonably low speed (around 4000-4500kbps) which gives me a line speed of 3.5Mbps. However the SNR on this seems to be reasonably high (even at peak times it's around 8-10dB). However if I try to reconnect the router it generally connects around 5.5-6.5Mbps with an SNR that fluctuates between 2-6dB (and sometimes lower) - obviously not bound to be stable!
I'd be happy if I could get the line speed to around 4Mbps, however as I've said, whenever I try to force the router to reconnect it connects at a much faster speed with a stupidly low SNR.
Is there any way to fix this or to ensure the line is more stable?
28 REPLIES 28
Anotherone
Champion
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Registered: ‎31-08-2007

Re: Noise Margin

Which router are you using? It may be one that you could use a software program called DMT to adjust the Target.
Otherwise, it's a case of pick a suitable time of day/night to resync. Do you know what the SNRM is immediately after a resync?
Can you post your current ADSL line stats from the router.
Beware resyncing too many times in a short time interval, the exchange DLM will think your line is unstable!
Peter_Vaughan
Grafter
Posts: 14,469
Registered: ‎30-07-2007

Re: Noise Margin

BT can set a min target SNR of 6, 9, 12 or 15dB. When this happens you generally only see the SNR at or higher than that figure ie. if BT have set 12dB, you would not normally see the SNR below 12dB.
In your case, because you are seeing SNRs of 6dB and 8->10dB, this is not because BT have changed your target SNR but more likely to do with fluctuations in your lines quality and thus SNR. SNR will vary throughout the day and for noisy lines can fluctuate a lot. Bad weather (i.e. rain & wind) can also affect SNR
So in your case BT have not changed the target SNR so you can't get it changed via a ticket. With what you ave said, BT are more likely to want to increase the target SNR to 9dB with a resultant loss of sync rate. BT will always try and sync to the target SNR but this can change and thus affect sync rates.
Snarf
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Re: Noise Margin

That's what I was thinking that the line was an issue, I'm happy to sacrifice some speed for a more stable line, it's just being able to connect at that specific speed (i.e. one to get me 4Mbps).
Current line stats are:
ADSL Link            Downstream    Upstream
Connection Speed 5632 kbps         448 kbps
Line Attenuation   40 db               13 db
Noise Margin         2 db                 21 db
The downstream noise margin is fluctuating between 1 and 3dB. If the noise on the line is causing the noise margin to drop from maybe a 6dB connection down to 1-3dB, that might suggest going for a target SNR of 9dB. The issue is I'm not in during the day (the router is left on) so I'm going to try f8lure to see what the line does when I'm not here.
Anotherone
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Registered: ‎31-08-2007

Re: Noise Margin

Thanks for those stats, that's a large variation in SNRM any way, about what time of day was it when you last synced? Also have you got the Down & Up powers in those stats?
One thing I can say is you should have a higher SNRM for that attenuation and sync which implies you are picking up a lot of noise.
Can you briefly describe your installation. What type of Master socket (is it the NTE5a LineBox), do you have extension wiring and sockets? etc.What type of phones, sky box connected via a filter?
Also, if you listen to your phone line, can you hear any crackling or other intermittent noises?
Snarf
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Re: Noise Margin

That connection was made around 9pm last night. The phone line setup isn't ideal as the phone socket is on the opposite side of the room and runs around the outside (probably a run of around 5-6m) before going into the router. Unfortunately the router needs to be on that side of the room as that's where the HTPC and my PC are (short of buying wireless cards). The master socket I believe is an NTE5a (it's a relatively new house) - I was thinking of trying tonight to connect the router directly to the master socket and checking the stats on a wireless laptop.
The phone line seems fine, no crackling that I've noticed. I don't think I have the powers (it's a Netgear DG834Gv3), at least I've never seen them available on any of the router screens.
I think the extension may be my failing - when I get my new laptop I'm tempted to stick a wireless dongle in the HTPC (although Vista isn't always reliable at picking up wireless!) which should eliminate the need for the extension (though the TV does have an ethernet port in it, though I'm told that it's not currently used, but may be used in the future).
Chris
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Re:Noise Margin

Quote
I was thinking of trying tonight to connect the router directly to the master socket and checking the stats on a wireless laptop.

Definitely worth trying this before anything else, extension leads can cause chaos with broadband connections.
Former Plusnet Staff member. Posts after 31st Jan 2020 are not on behalf of Plusnet.
pierre_pierre
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Re: Noise Margin

but dont leave moving your router til after 3, better to leave it til Sat or Sunday between 9:00 and 3:00
Anotherone
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Re: Noise Margin

Hi pierre, Chris & snarf
Smiley well snarf I was going to say something similar, the reason for doing it between 9am -3pm is that noise levels are generally lower. However, that said, because your last sync was at 9pm last night and your SNRM was dipping to 2db, I would actually recommend doing it after dark (although there are risks) because if you achieve too high a sync, as you have already observed things won't be stable Shocked
It may be (guessing from stats posted) that your target SNRM is still 6dB, the last thing you want is line drops for the exchange to raise the Target, and hence probably get poorer results.
Especially because you have had some drops recently, what I recommend is always power down the modem/router and wait several minutes before disconnecting any line - mastersocket/filter/cable etc. This is so the exchange sees the power down and hopefully doesn't interpret it as a line drop. Wait a good 5 minutes in your case, before unplugging. Don't powerup again until you have finished plugging everything back in.
Don't do this more than 5 times in an hour, and then leave it for the rest of the day.
You really should plug into the "test" socket which is behind the master front plate, unless you have no fixed extension wiring connected to the rear of the front plate - that's the front plate not the rear of the box itself!
Is your extension wire fixed or plugged into the master socket?
Once you have connected to the master/test socket take a set of ADSL line stats immediately after the line syncs. The will give a good indication of the Target SNRM. The only "risk" of doing it when noise levels are higher is that if you happen to sync when the noise dips, and it then comes back after you get a high sync speed your SNRM may plummet.
If things seem fairly stable once connected, leave it alone and post back some more stats later, especially if you spot any larger changes in SNRM, but especially tomorrow morning after 9am.
Tell us more about this extension and why you think it may be "failing".
Snarf
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Re: Noise Margin

The only reason I mention the extension lead is that it runs in parallel with some speaker cable (that should be reasonably shielded however) but then behind the TV (a plasma) and the HTPC and DVD/AV up to the router that's near the Wii and XBox (there's quite alot going on!). It also runs quite near to a few plug sockets (possibly not ideal).
I will probably try it both directly plugged into the telephone socket in this room and also the master socket just to see the difference (if there is any). This should then give me an indication of the performance of the extension lead. Will try and remember to post stats later!
orbrey
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Re:Noise Margin

Sounds good, I look forward to seeing if there's any difference.
Snarf
Grafter
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Registered: ‎04-08-2007

Re: Noise Margin

Just quickly these are the stats I got:
Socket on other side of room (no extension)
ADSL Link  Downstream  Upstream
Connection Speed 5952 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 40 db 13 db
Noise Margin 3 db 24 db
1-3dB variation on SNR
Master Plate off
ADSL Link  Downstream  Upstream
Connection Speed 7392 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 40 db 13 db
Noise Margin 6 db 23 db
3-6dB variation on SNR
Socket on front of master plate
ADSL Link  Downstream  Upstream
Connection Speed 5888 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 40 db 13 db
Noise Margin 1 db 22 db
0-2dB variation
Inside the master socket the wires are as follows:
Blue and white (wired into 5), blue (into 2) and a red/yellow wire (into 3) connected behind socket, all others (think there was a green and a green/white) disconnected.
Hope that helps!
exporters
Grafter
Posts: 195
Registered: ‎23-10-2009

Re: Noise Margin

Excuse me please; I've been following the thread on SNR and wonder if anyone can comment on my situation.  Low, fluctuating down speeds.
My Belkin router.modem shows;
                       DOWN                         UP
Data Rate       4864                          448
Noise margin      15                             26
Output power   19.6                            12.4
Attenuation.      44                               23.5
Figs from 'My B'band Speed:-
Today    17:27    6402 kbps (800kB/s)       368 kbps (46kB/s)
Today    12:31    6288 kbps (786kB/s)       370 kbps (46.3kB/s)
Today    11:10    44208 kbps (5.53MB/s)   359 kbps (44.9kB/s)
Today    10:50    21936 kbps (2.74MB/s)   364 kbps (45.5kB/s)
Today    10:49    2681 kbps (335kB/s)       364 kbps (45.5kB/s)
Today    10:48    2675 kbps (334kB/s)       363 kbps (45.4kB/s)  
Today    10:48    2681 kbps (335kB/s)       368 kbps (46kB/s)
Yest’day 23:55    2668 kbps (334kB/s)       370 kbps (46.3kB/s)
Yest’day 23:54    1991 kbps (249kB/s)       327 kbps (40.9kB/s)
Yest’day 23:53    2668 kbps (334kB/s)       370 kbps (46.3kB
Peter_Vaughan
Grafter
Posts: 14,469
Registered: ‎30-07-2007

Re: Noise Margin

exports, can I suggest you start a new thread as it can get confusing trying to deal with 2 problems in the same thread.
@snarf,
So you get the best speed when connected to the test socket. This suggests something in your internal wiring is causing the high SNR. Do you have any other extensions in the house and are they connected to the back of the removable lower plate of the master socket or via an extension cable plugged into the front of the master socket?
Are all your phones, faxes, modems, sky boxes etc connected to ADSL filter / splitters?
Snarf
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Re: Noise Margin

The Master socket is downstairs (next to the front door). The router is attached via an extension cable from a telephone socket upstairs (well middle floor as we're in a town house!). There are no other phone sockets being used in the house. As the socket on the outside of the master socket showed the same performance as upstairs and differed by quite alot from the test socket I was thinking there may be something wrong with the master socket downstairs. I believe there is supposed to be a slight difference between the test socket and other sockets in the house, but this seemed more of a difference (1500kbps difference in speed plus the extra few dB of noise).