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More Line Droputs & Speed Issues

Anotherone
Champion
Posts: 19,107
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Registered: ‎31-08-2007

Re: More Line Droputs & Speed Issues

@nilsatis
Who is your line provider? It's important if you've got intermittent noise on the line to try and report it when the noise is present. You must be sure that it is the line - not always easy when it's intermittent.
When you hear the noise, powerdown the modem/router and check the noise is still present. make sure you use a corded phone and any cordless phones & base station are switched off & unplugged. If the noise is still present check that you can hear it when plugged direct into the test socket without a filter.
Ring your line provider when the noise is there, do not use any automated tests, incoming ringing current can temporarily clean a bad joint.
Ask the adviser to confirm they can hear the noise and note that it's intermittent. Request that fact is passed to the Openreach engineer.
Don't mention the Broadband otherwise you'll get given the run around. If they happen to ask if there's a problem with broadband say you don't know, you are reporting a voice fault.
Oldjim
Resting Legend
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Registered: ‎15-06-2007

Re: More Line Droputs & Speed Issues

I am not sure what other people are seeing in your results but this is what I see.
With an attenuation of 54dB and a noise margin of about 12dB a speed of 2912kbps is perfectly normal.
Comparing the results from the extension socket where the attenuation is the same but the noise margin is 6dB with an appalling speed there is almost certainly a problem with your internal wiring.
Anotherone
Champion
Posts: 19,107
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Registered: ‎31-08-2007

Re: More Line Droputs & Speed Issues

I don't disagree that's a possibility Jim, but bearing in mind what he said in his first post it was going to be the second thing to explore in my mind, but now we have the noise issue which if heard from the test socket will confirm a line problem.
That said we must still explore the internal wiring, so these would be my next questions, could you describe the following -
1) What logo do you have on your NTE5 Master LineBox?
2) How many fixed extension sockets have you got, and roughly how the cables go from one to another;
3) What filters do you have and which socket is the Modem/Router normally plugged in?
4) Do you have a corded phone, do you have a cordless phone - if so what type - DECT or Analogue?
5) Is any other POTS (plain old telephone service) equipment (Faxes, Answer phones, Sky boxes or Alarms systems etc) plugged in/connected and are they all plugged in via filters.
6) When the noise was heard, which phone was used and where was it plugged in?
nilsatis
Grafter
Posts: 25
Registered: ‎05-12-2009

Re: More Line Droputs & Speed Issues

Ok, info requested as follows:
1. My NTE5 box has Openreach and BT Openreach logo on it.
2. I have 1 fixed extension. I have no idea how it is wired - its just another phone socket on the wall in the bedroom. My router is plugged into this extension socket via an extension cable.
3. I am using what I presume are standard microfilters. There is no identifying mark it. I was using the filters provided with my previous router but have changed them for new ones as advised when all this started.
4. I have a DECT cordless phone plugged into the master socket and an analogue corded phone plugged into the filter for the router.
5. There is no other POTS equipment plugged in anywhere.
6. Wen the noise was heard it was on the DECT phone. We have also noticed that the range of the DECT phone is not what it used to be.
My line provider is BT.
I understand that running my router on an extension cable from an extension socket is not ideal but it has worked perfectly well like this for many years with only one blip about 20 months ago which turned out to be a line problem. Nothing has changed or been added to this setup so how likely is it that it should suddenly start to fail and get progressively worse as described?
My router is several years old. Is it possible that there is a fault with my router that could be causing this?
Thanks for the help so far - much appreciated.
pierre_pierre
Grafter
Posts: 19,757
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Registered: ‎30-07-2007

Re: More Line Droputs & Speed Issues

have you got at least one filter between the Dect and the master socket (some brands of Dect need two)
jelv
Seasoned Hero
Posts: 26,785
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Registered: ‎10-04-2007

Re: More Line Droputs & Speed Issues

I think pierre_pierre has picked up an issue - from your answers it looks like you have no filter on the DECT phone. If that is the case, whenever the phone rings or is used loads of interference will hit the router causing loads of errors and probably disconnections. BT will try to sort that out by increasing your target SNRM which will give you a lower sync speed.
jelv (a.k.a Spoon Whittler)
   Why I have left Plusnet (warning: long post!)   
Broadband: Andrews & Arnold Home::1 (FTTC 80/20)
Line rental: Pulse 8 Home Line Rental (£14.40/month)
Mobile: iD mobile (£4/month)
nilsatis
Grafter
Posts: 25
Registered: ‎05-12-2009

Re: More Line Droputs & Speed Issues

Jelv / Pierre - apologies for not being as clear as I should have been. I have just reread my earlier post and can see where you are coming from.
I should have siad the DECT phone is plugged into the main box via a filter. Sorry.
I have been unable to get hold of the router I was planning to use but remembered that I still have the Thomson router PN sent me. It is unused and still in its box so I have dragged it out of the back of the cupboard and and currently using that. I connected it yesterday evening (not to the master socket) and as far as I can tell it has maintined a connection ever since. Speed is still not great but at least I was able to get online and stay online without the line drops that I have been experiencing most days. Does that point the finger at my Netgear router? It is several years old now.
I will move everything back to the test socket later today and post some router stats.

bobpullen
Community Gaffer
Community Gaffer
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Registered: ‎04-04-2007

Re: More Line Droputs & Speed Issues

Things seem to have been much more stable since you swapped the router out:
Session Started	Session Ended	Session Duration
11:26 07/Dec/2009 13:32 07/Dec/2009   2:6:6
16:21 06/Dec/2009 11:25 07/Dec/2009   19:4:3

There was a disconnection earlier at 11:25am mind you.

Bob Pullen
Plusnet Product Team
If I've been helpful then please give thanks ⤵

Anotherone
Champion
Posts: 19,107
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Registered: ‎31-08-2007

Re: More Line Droputs & Speed Issues

Hi again,
Firstly, DECT phones can interfere under some circumstances which is why you should try and confirm things with a corded phone.
When it comes to extension sockets and wiring the sort of information we are always after is along the lines of  "..... there's only two extension sockets in the house and the cable goes from the master socket to the first extension and then to the second (as far as I can tell... if you can't see the cable run)...." or whatever.
So from what you've said, I assume there is only the one extension socket and when you are next at the test socket, have a look,  there should only be one cable connected to the removable faceplate and your extension socket should be dead..
Quote
I understand that running my router on an extension cable from an extension socket is not ideal but it has worked perfectly well like this for many years with only one blip about 20 months ago which turned out to be a line problem. Nothing has changed or been added to this setup so how likely is it that it should suddenly start to fail and get progressively worse as described?

Two aspects to this. First, if the wiring isn't the right standard, it's vulnerable to pickup of interference and you may never have got the best performance but second you may have had an unfortunate combination of bursts of interference that have resulted in the exchange putting up the Target SNRM which will have resulted in slow sync speed and hence slow throughput. From you stats it does look as thought your Target may be at the maximum 15dB.
Other things to consider, have you had any decorating done recently, with the possibility of damage to the cable. Any new electrical equipment in the house? the possibility of the next door neighbour had some new electrical equipment. Fancy flashing sets of Xmas lights are favourites at this time of year for causing interference.
There are generally a couple of very simple things one can do to find out if you may have wiring problems. The first and easiest is to look at what you've got. At the back of that faceplate you've unpolugged from the master socket, you are hopefully going to see just tjhe one cable and single wires of the following colours - Blue+white trace on terminal 2, White+blue trace on terminal 5. You may also see Orange-white & White-orange wires on 3 & 4. As you have an OpenReach Linebox (as opposed to ones with the Piper logo, or just plain BT), in theory we don't need to do anything with the orange wires.
Also have a look at the back of the extension socket, you should see single wires of the same colours on the same terminals. Check also you don't see a yellow "sausage shaped" capacitor on the extension socket.
If your wires are any other colours please advise.
If everything is as described above, that just leaves your extension lead. What type is it - flat or round? Does it plug into the socket with the filter on the other end or is the filter in the socket with the extension lead in the modem socket going to the modem?
I'll leave it at that point for a moment for you to advise, and we'll take it from there.
nilsatis
Grafter
Posts: 25
Registered: ‎05-12-2009

Re: More Line Droputs & Speed Issues

As per my earlier post, the new router managed to maintain a connection for a long time and dropped, briefly at 11:25 this morning.
Stats for this router taken at 10:25 this morning from my office upstairs:
Uptime: 0 days, 18:02:29
DSL Type: G.992.1 annex A
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 448 / 1,984
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [kB/MB]: 0.00 / 99.02
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 11.5 / 17.5
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 27.0 / 49.0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 20.0 / 18.0
Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / ALCB
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 670
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 15
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 7
I have now shifted back to the master box test socket. Stats are:
Uptime: 0 days, 0:16:10 
DSL Type: G.992.1 annex A
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 448 / 2,880
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [kB/kB]: 0.00 / 0.00
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 11.5 / 19.0
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 27.0 / 49.0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 22.0 / 15.0 
Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / ALCB
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0 
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0 
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0 
Loss of Link (Remote): 0 
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 703 
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 0 
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 0
It still baffles me so how do they look now?
nilsatis
Grafter
Posts: 25
Registered: ‎05-12-2009

Re: More Line Droputs & Speed Issues

Oh booger, I hit the post button without seeing your latest post Anotherone.
I have to go out for a coupoe of hours but when I get back I'll check the wiring as suggested and report back.
Thanks.
bobpullen
Community Gaffer
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Registered: ‎04-04-2007

Re: More Line Droputs & Speed Issues

You're synchronising almost 1Mbps higher from the master socket so it will be interesting to hear how the extension socket is wired. Have you thought about plugging the router into the master socket permanently and connecting the office PC via Wifi?

Bob Pullen
Plusnet Product Team
If I've been helpful then please give thanks ⤵

Jarvo
Grafter
Posts: 40
Registered: ‎03-12-2009

Re: More Line Droputs & Speed Issues

Quote from: Bob
Have you thought about plugging the router into the master socket permanently and connecting the office PC via Wifi?

Where my home line enters the house, in the hallway I have my router there.  I used to use those HomePlug AV devices, to push my network around the house.  I had six in total around the house:
Lounge
Hall
Bedroom
Garage
Office
Guest Room
On each one I would get 100Mb/s or more throughput.  Beat WiFi hands down.
jelv
Seasoned Hero
Posts: 26,785
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Registered: ‎10-04-2007

Re: More Line Droputs & Speed Issues

The other alternative is to have the router by the master and run a Cat 5e cable from that to a cheap 100Mbps switch upstairs (you can get them for less than £10).
jelv (a.k.a Spoon Whittler)
   Why I have left Plusnet (warning: long post!)   
Broadband: Andrews & Arnold Home::1 (FTTC 80/20)
Line rental: Pulse 8 Home Line Rental (£14.40/month)
Mobile: iD mobile (£4/month)
Anotherone
Champion
Posts: 19,107
Thanks: 457
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Registered: ‎31-08-2007

Re: More Line Droputs & Speed Issues

None of that should be necessary if he's got CW1308 cabling, he's got an OpenReach Master Linebox as well mind, only the one extension.