cancel
Showing results for 
Search instead for 
Did you mean: 

Market Confusion

David_W
Rising Star
Posts: 2,296
Thanks: 30
Registered: 19-07-2007

Market Confusion

I was just visiting Sam Knows and checking my exchange (btw, usertools.plus.net doesn't recognise my postcode, Sam Knows does however) and it's classed as Market 2, which is what I knew it would be.  I then looked at the LLU list which shows 4 suppliers of LLU for my exchange, AOL, Orange, TalkTalk and Tiscali.
From what I read on Sam Knows, I thought that if an exchange had 4 LLU providers it would become Market 3?  I myself am on an old account and won't switch, but if exchanges with 4 LLU providers are only showing up as market 2, then how many market 2's are there that really should be market 3 and as my exchange does have 4 LLU providers, shouldn't it be market 3 anyhow?
http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/WWHAYL <-- link to my exchange.
The only thing I can think of is from the Ofcom document found here (PDF) which mentions:
those geographic areas covered by exchanges
where there are 2 or 3 Principal Operators present
(actual or forecast) AND exchanges where there are
forecast to be 4 or more Principal Operators but
where the exchange serves less than 10,000
premises
That would suggest a minimum number of 10,000, but the keyword there is "forecast", so if there are 3 providers but forecasts for another to eventually show up sometime soon, it would remain market 2 until the 4th provider signed up.
Anyone help with my confusion?
10 REPLIES
Community Veteran
Posts: 26,688
Thanks: 911
Fixes: 10
Registered: 10-04-2007

Re: Market Confusion

It's a BT/OFCOM stitch up so that people in rural areas with long lines and hence have pathetic speeds have to pay more for the privilege.
jelv (a.k.a Spoon Whittler)
   Why I have left Plusnet (warning: long post!)   
Broadband: Andrews & Arnold Home::1 (FTTC 80/20)
Line rental: Pulse 8 Home Line Rental (£13/month)
Mobile: iD mobile (£4/month)
David_W
Rising Star
Posts: 2,296
Thanks: 30
Registered: 19-07-2007

Re: Market Confusion

I totally agree with you! (although I'm connected at 8Mb and I guess less than a mile as the crow flies from the exchange  Crazy)
pierre_pierre
Grafter
Posts: 19,757
Registered: 30-07-2007

Re: Market Confusion

I think you have got the reasoning absolutely correct, but how many domestic users did Sam say?  Ah only 6000 total.   also from earlier this year, it can take a long time for BT to change from a Market 2  to 3
But it is a nice place out of the Summer season, tried to visit a shop on the harbour front earlier this year, got a Blue Badge - no use.  They did have a warehouse in Hayle, but I didnt have the address
Mand
Grafter
Posts: 5,560
Thanks: 1
Registered: 05-04-2007

Re: Market Confusion

@dgwebb, the reason your exchange will only be classed as Market 2 is because it serves much less than 10000 customers.
@pierre_pierre, its OFCOM, not BT, that control the list, and they update it fairly rarely (once a year at best).
reserved
Grafter
Posts: 617
Registered: 08-11-2008

Re: Market Confusion

My exchange http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/NDUCK ; serves 7000 customers and is Market 3 but I'm not complaining  Smiley
David_W
Rising Star
Posts: 2,296
Thanks: 30
Registered: 19-07-2007

Re: Market Confusion

Thanks Mand, I just looked at Kitz which states it differently to Sam Knows (and the Ofcom document), Kitz puts it as:
Market 2 : 2 or 3 principal operators AND exchanges where there are 4 or more principal Operators but where the exchange serves less than 10,000 premises.
Sam Knows puts it as:
Market 2 - Exchanges where two or three operators provided broadband services (including BT)
The PlusNet FAQ lists:
Or there's 4 or more forecasted providers and less than 10,000 properties served
So wouldn't it be prudent to remove the "forecasted" from the FAQ so it says "Or there's 4 or more providers and less than 10,000 properties served" as it gives the impression that if there are more than 4 actual providers, and not forecasted then an exchange will switch to Market 3?
--edit
Having a look around, I can see no parity on the classifications of markets!
Helston - only a few more people than Hayle (both smallish towns) M3
Bodmin - about the same people as Hayle (6k) M3
Saltash - More people, 5 providers, M2?
So there is no parity, we have Bodmin that has 6,368 resi, 485 business and 5 LLU being Market 3, Helston with 7,110 resi and 465 business and only 4 providers being Market 3, but Saltash with 7,534 resi and 414 business as well as 5 LLU's being Market 2.
BT rate Saltash higher than Helston and are upgrading their exchange to 21CN in Q4 2010 and Heltson in Q3 2011, the only difference I can see is that the M3's have SDSL from LLU.
So as you can see its very confusing, towns with less than 10k population are M3, other towns with more population and more providers are market 2.  I'm quite lost now on what makes a Market 2 a Market 2 and what makes a Market 3 a Market 3, there isn't any sense to it  Undecided
Superuser
Superuser
Posts: 9,583
Thanks: 958
Fixes: 55
Registered: 06-04-2007

Re: Market Confusion

As I understand it OFCOM's aim is to encourage competition and they do that in smaller exchanges by requiring BT to charge higher prices making them less competitive. Higher BT prices continue until a sufficient number of LLU providers are available and each is judged to have earned a reasonable return on their investment. I expect that judgement includes subjective elements as well as simply ticks in the appropriate boxes.
After that the exchange becomes unregulated (Market 3) allowing BT to compete on equal terms, no doubt in the face of LLU-provider objections.
Consumers raising the Market classification for particular exchanges with OFCOM (and why not their local MPs?) can't do any harm and would seem to be the way forward to encourage change.
David
David_W
Rising Star
Posts: 2,296
Thanks: 30
Registered: 19-07-2007

Re: Market Confusion

Seems counter intuitive to me.  It's sort of like "BT is the only provider here, so lets force them to have higher prices to increase competition with no one, because they are the only provider..."  I can see where LLU providers would look at Market 1's and think "hey, we can make a killing there" but Market 1 where BT are the only provider should be cheaper, although that would risk LLU providers not providing there.
I'm still unsure why some exchanges which seem to be market 2 (less than 10k) are market 3, and others which appear better (more people, more LLU's) are market 2.
My local MP lives in Hayle, I should bug him about it Cheesy
pierre_pierre
Grafter
Posts: 19,757
Registered: 30-07-2007

Re: Market Confusion

they did the same with the postal service, net result Post office closed no end of counter to save money.
and Buses, now all the ones who made a quick killing are giving up
and trains, look at the mess they are in now.  - France,Spain,Italy, Germay, only one
David_W
Rising Star
Posts: 2,296
Thanks: 30
Registered: 19-07-2007

Re: Market Confusion

Sorry to bump my own topic but I think I've figured it out!  My exchange has 4 providers, AOL, Orange, TalkTalk and Tiscali.  However, Tiscali is owned by TalkTalk (and as of today, no longer exists) so whilst there are 4 LLU providers in my area, there are actually only 3, TalkTalk and Tiscali are being classed as one?  Still doesn't explain Saltash who already have access to VDSL2+ and FTTH apparently via Virgin, surely they should be market 3?