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Leave your router on all the time - Really?!

ReedRichards
Seasoned Pro
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Registered: ‎14-07-2009

Re: Leave your router on all the time - Really?!

Quote from: strider
For a bit of good news, my router has been up 3 days and this evening I got a download speed of 4561 Kb/s (up from my usual ~4250 Kb/s).

So maybe you need to edit the title of the thread to read:  "Leave your router on all the time - Really!!"
strider
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Registered: ‎24-09-2010

Re: Leave your router on all the time - Really?!

Quote from: ReedRichards
So maybe you need to edit the title of the thread to read:  "Leave your router on all the time - Really!!"

One swift does not a summer make.  This evening I am back to 4244 kbps.
Do I need to turn my router off and on to let the system change my speed?
s
WWWombat
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Registered: ‎29-01-2009

Re: Leave your router on all the time - Really?!

Quote from: strider
Do I need to turn my router off and on to let the system change my speed?

Every time you turn the router on, it will go through a new synchronisation.
That process always decides a new speed value by measuring the relative signal level (which rarely changes) vs the current noise level (which is changing all the time) - the SNR - and subtracting an allowance for future additional noise (the "target noise margin").
Generally, noise levels are higher from dusk to dawn, and lower in the middle of the morning... so a synchronisation in the morning can be at a higher speed than one in the evening.
Once the modem has gone through synchronisation, it continues to measure the relative signal/noise levels, and reports this back to tell you what the current margin is. When you view the modem's stats just after a synchronisation, the SNRM value will probably reflect the "target SNRM" value that applied during the synchronisation. However, the modem's reported value will then change over time to reflect current conditions. The reported margin will go up if the noise reduces, and will go down if the noise increases. If it reduces to zero (or close to zero), it is likely the modem will no longer be able to "hear" the exchange properly through the noise, and a new synchronisation will be necessary - which will obviously end up at a lower speed to account for the higher noise at the time.
However, the exchange's DSLAM also monitors the line conditions using a process known as DLM - which can determine that you either have an unstable line (too many disconnections) or have too many errors recently - and will then respond by increasing that "target margin" value, and triggering a new synchronisation - which will usually then give a slower speed because of the higher margin now necessary. The default value is 6dB, and it goes up in steps to 9, 12 or 15dB... and it can be a slow painful process to get the DLM system to drop the values back again (ie weeks).
If DLM *does* make a change to your settings, it will trigger an automatic synchronisation. There is no need for you to do anything to help this along, and there is nothing you can do to hinder it (unfortunately).
So, if you perform a new synchronisation (or power off/on), and get a slower speed, it can either be because there is currently more noise on the line, or because the DLM process has decided you need a higher target margin for your line, or (worse), both together.
When you turn your modem off too often (either manually, or because you have set an idle-timeout), you run the risk of inadvertantly triggering this DLM process ... which is obviously a bad thing for your speeds. So... the advice is to keep the modem on 24/7 to ensure you don't trigger DLM, and consequently to keep speeds high. Because the bad DLM behaviour is triggered by a mixture of your personal behaviour *and* the line conditions, no-one knows whether that advice is absolutely correct for you personally, but it remains good advice.
The exact parameters governing BT's DLM algorithm are unknown to us, and can change. Normally, people reckon that disconnecting more than once within an hour is bad behaviour. Other people advide no more than 1 disconnection each day (mid-morning) can be a good thing - at least for getting maximum speed with the current settings.
You reported your line stats once, which showed a noise margin of 12dB. That will be a "current margin" figure, and we can't be sure it represents a "target margin" unless a synchronisation was done just beforehand.
It is a high margin, and a starting point for investigations (which JoJo has started, by asking for a reset). However, with your line known to get interference from a radio station (even though it has an RF filter fitted), it seems possible that the noise-level on your line will vary more than average - and perhaps a 6db margin is just not suitable, and it needs to be higher.
Plusnet Customer
Using FTTC since 2011. Currently on 80/20 Unlimited Fibre Extra.
strider
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Registered: ‎24-09-2010

Re: Leave your router on all the time - Really?!

Thanks WWWombat,
I think I am starting to understand the process.
The only bit I don't understand from what you talk about (and I never did get on with electrical noise):
"The reported margin will go up if the noise reduces, and will go down if the noise increases."
Is that the correct way round.  Because  further down you imply that the initial noise margin will be increased if there are problems.
Of general note the noise margin reported by my router is usually 12 to 13db, but occasionally I see 15db.
Sadly my current router does not report the number of errors
A side note is I note the download speed I get with my ubuntu updates has changed from 480kB/s to 510kB/s having been running my router for about a week.
I'm surprised that the DSLAM doesn't use just the error rate as the main tool to decide a noise change and only worry about disconnections if they are happening in the sub 5 minutes.
I use to run a turn the line off after 30 minutes of inactivity as well as turning the router off when it was not needed.
For general information here are my current router stats (interestingly the Downstream margin seems to be steady at 15db)
DSL Status: Connected
DSL Modulation Mode: ADSL2+
DSL Path Mode: Fast
Downstream Rate: 5653 kbps
Upstream Rate: 439 kbps
Downstream Margin: 15 db
Upstream Margin: 23 db
Downstream Line Attenuation: 39 db
Upstream Line Attenuation: 11 db
Downstream Transmit Power: 12 db
Upstream Transmit Power: 21 db
Thanks again
S
strider
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Registered: ‎24-09-2010

Re: Leave your router on all the time - Really?!

Is there any chance of a view of one of those logs that shows the number of times my router connects and disconnects?
I'd just like to know if my system is as solid as I think it is.
S
spraxyt
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Re: Leave your router on all the time - Really?!

The Digital Care Team staff who monitor the forums won't be in until Tuesday now. So it's likely you will have to wait until then for a picture.
David
WWWombat
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Registered: ‎29-01-2009

Re: Leave your router on all the time - Really?!

Quote from: strider
The only bit I don't understand from what you talk about (and I never did get on with electrical noise):
"The reported margin will go up if the noise reduces, and will go down if the noise increases."
Is that the correct way round.  Because  further down you imply that the initial noise margin will be increased if there are problems.

It is the right way around. What you need to distinguish between is the initial "target margin" and the actual margin reported by the modem. The former is never shown to you, nor can it be seen by you directly. The latter is what the modem reports on its webpage.
Generally, the reported margin shows you just how much margin there is between the current signal level and the current noise level. When the noise goes down for a while, the modem finds it easier to make itself heard, and this is reported by having a larger margin at the time. And vice-versa.
The target margin is different - it is a value configured in the DSLAM that is used only during synchronisation, to negotiate the speed. Once negotiated, the target margin doesn't come into play until the next time a synchronisation needs to happen.
Normally, there is no way to work out what the "target margin" value is. You can look at the reported margin and guess, but this becomes more unreliable as you get a longer time since the last synchronisation. If you look immediately after the synchronisation, there is a good chance that the reported value will be close to one of the known target values: 6, 9, 12 or 15.
When there comes a time that there are sufficient errors or disconnections, the DLM process will detect this, and allocate a new, higher, target margin and then trigger a new synchronisation. That sync will use the new target margin value to negotiate a speed - which will probably be slower, but will actually depend (as ever) on the noise at the time. The modem will start reporting the actual margin - and straight after the sync, this will be close to that higher target value. As time goes on, the reported value will change as before: more noise will decrease the reported margin,
So you are right in a sense: Increased noise on the line can, ultimately cause the noise margin to increase - but only if there is a resync (caused by that noise) to a new, slower speed . And even more so if DLM triggers an increase in the target *and* a resync.
But without a resync happpening, an increase in noise will cause a decrease in the reported margin.
I'm now wondering if I've committed the typical sin: Tried to explain something, but with all the words, actually made it more complex. I hope it helps...
Quote
Of general note the noise margin reported by my router is usually 12 to 13db, but occasionally I see 15db.

That's not so good. It implies that either you experience a large variance of noise between day and night, or you are getting sufficient disconnections to trigger DLM into action. The stats you gave also suggest you should be able to get better speeds.
Quote
I'm surprised that the DSLAM doesn't use just the error rate as the main tool to decide a noise change and only worry about disconnections if they are happening in the sub 5 minutes.

It really depends on what problem it needs to solve, and the duration of the noise. I'm not sure they have the process right at the moment, and I have noticed that it appears to behave very differently in FTTC deployments. Rumous has it that BT are changing some of the process on DSL lines - but it is hard to tell exactly what will get changed.
It would be better to have a variety of solutions for different fault scenarios - and allow the ISP or End User to choose the best fit.
Plusnet Customer
Using FTTC since 2011. Currently on 80/20 Unlimited Fibre Extra.
WWWombat
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Re: Leave your router on all the time - Really?!

Quote from: strider
Is there any chance of a view of one of those logs that shows the number of times my router connects and disconnects?
I'd just like to know if my system is as solid as I think it is.
S

Have you tried looking at RouterStats or RouterStats Lite?
That lets you track your line's behaviour yourself, provided you have a supported modem...
http://www.vwlowen.co.uk/internet/files.htm
If you do, try to use it with a wired connection. On wireless, it occasionally fails to connect to the modem to read stats - and in the graph, it looks uncomfortably close to a disconnection.
Plusnet Customer
Using FTTC since 2011. Currently on 80/20 Unlimited Fibre Extra.
jojopillo
Plusnet Alumni (retired)
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Re: Leave your router on all the time - Really?!

Hi Strider,
Especially for you...

Jojo Smiley
disfroot
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Re: Leave your router on all the time - Really?!

Quote from: WWWombat

close to one of the known target values: 6, 9, 12 or 15.

you can add 3dB to that list - that's the target SNR my line is continually trying to achieve.
strider
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Registered: ‎24-09-2010

Re: Leave your router on all the time - Really?!

Hi Jojo,
Thanks for the connection log.  Not quite sure how to read it (I know what it says, not what it means for me).  Some of the disconnect/re-connects are happening when no one is in the house so it is not obviously linked to Internet usage.
WWWombat,
I'll look in to RouterStats Lite.  Looks like my router is on the usable list, rather than the work out of the box list.  So thanks.
S