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Hardly a new topic.......... SPEED

WWWombat
Grafter
Posts: 1,412
Thanks: 4
Registered: ‎29-01-2009

Re: Hardly a new topic.......... SPEED

Quote from: Dex
I must admit though, managing traffic during peak times is not acceptable, the infrastructure needs to be able to cope with the maximum demand. I work as a building management system engineer, there is absolutely no chance that our clients would accept that we could only meet the building design conditions during off peak periods......... we also deal with data centres, again, they would not accept that argument.

Well, there's management, and there's management. There's good management, and certainly scope for bad management.
For example, the telephone network is not designed so that everyone can make a call when they want - all trunk lines could be busy, or there's a vote in progress for some celebrities in a jungle; there is even a chance that you won't get a dialtone when you pick up the phone - even wired phones. Why? Because the network is dimensioned for a reasonable peak-hour load, but not an excessive one... and the skills in dimensioning telephony equipment have been learnt over a century. If you want 100% guarantees, you will need to pay considerably more. I've worked for years as a telecomms design engineer, and I can guarantee that our clients need to be able to carefully dimension their equipment to meet peak load in the best way, but not to over-dimension. We also work very hard at handling the overload cases, so that the system continues to work in a coherent fashion, and continues to handle the peak load while shedding the overload.
Historically, datacomms has always been a much wilder place than telecomms - where the only rule was "best effort", and anything could be dropped at any time when overload occurred. There was no effort to keep any coherent order. But that is changing.
Traffic management is the means by which the datacomms world is learning to apply the century-old telecomms lessons to dimensioning. Applying management in the right way is good for you - it ensures that you get a fair share of the available resources at peak hours - and that you get that fair share in a way that tries to keep your applications (esp audio & video) working. When it is designed correctly, TM is fighting *for* you, not against you.
Why is it needed? It isn't *just* because too many people are browsing at once, or watching a lot of videos. One major reason is that there are protocols out there (especially P2P) which have been designed to use as much bandwidth as you can put in front of them - and so would overwhelm any ISP. Filesharers want as much bandwidth as possible, and don't really want to pay for it. In the old "best effort" world, these sort of protocols are very bad neighbours to anything else - particularly those activities that don't demand massive bandwidth, but do demand a reasonable quality stream, or a reasonable interactive response time.
If an ISP wants to be able to carry both types of traffic at their peak hour, unlimited, then they need to dimension their network with a lot of capacity - which, of course costs a lot of money, and puts up the subscription fees. And that capacity won't be used so well in the off-peak hours.
If, on the other hand, he wants to run an economically viable service, then he needs to purchase less peak capacity in the network (so his service is cheaper to subscribers), and persuade some of the traffic to time-shift into the off-peak hours (so it is well balanced). Having peak-hour usage limits and a policy of free overnight usage are both a stick and carrot that helps persuade the "bad neighbour" users to time-shift their non-interactive loads.
Traffic management provides two facets to help during the peak hours: It actively helps those applications that have interactive or timing needs (browsing, audio, and video), and it polices against applications that are trying to guzzle bandwidth. The downside is that the ISP has to make assumptions about how you want to work - and those assumptions don't always fit.
Any "good neighbours" who cannot time-shift their traffic are usually willing to pay slightly higher subscriptions, so that they can get their traffic through. Likewise those subscribers whose needs are different from the norm are also more willing to pay higher prices. And for those people, the packages do exist, as higher price points. You can choose to get your traffic through faster, and you can choose to buy more peak-hour traffic capacity.
Traffic Management has one more facet. Those who have learnt to use it properly will also tend to learn how to use it in times of abnormally high usage, or severe network damage. Traffic Management can come in very handy at continuing to give fair access when really heavily overloaded, or badly degraded (think of the impact to traffic of another 9/11, or an explosion at one of the Telehouse centres) - to those who know how to use it.
I agree that traffic management can be bad. It can be hidden, undocumented,  and can be used to paper over the cracks of a badly under-dimensioned network by someone out to ripoff the subscribers.
The trick for an ISP is getting the balance right. The trick for a subscriber is identifying the ISPs doing good from those doing bad.
I just went looking for an old guide to the economics that I know is on the Plusnet blog somewhere, when I came across these 2 videos explaining what I just said:
Video 1of Dave Tomlinson
Video 2 of Dave Tomlinson
The old guide to the economics of buying capacity on the internet
In fact, Plusnet have a huge amount of stuff on their blog that justifies their position in traffic management. The stuff back in 2008, as the iPlayer started service is eye-opening.
Plusnet Customer
Using FTTC since 2011. Currently on 80/20 Unlimited Fibre Extra.
Dex
Dabbler
Posts: 10
Registered: ‎15-06-2011

Re: Hardly a new topic.......... SPEED

WWWombat firstly many thanks for the comprehensive explanation and links, I have only viewed the videos at the mo, but they do fortify your position and reasoning. I accept that as things stand traffic management is a necessary evil, however I wonder that if the money currently directed towards traffic management was directed to capacity would the former be necessary?
To slightly deconstruct your argument,  taking power generation as an example, the infrastructure is managed according to capacity, however there is capacity or contingency to meet maximum demand without any squeezing of the voltage or current. Now, I am currently on the Broadband Premier package, that costs me £21.99 per month (Just changed to Extra at £17.99) so I pay for the top service, the bill is approx 50% of what I spend on electricity. On top of that I pay BT for line rental, so now we are at about 70% of my electricity bill to Plusnet and BT.
I fail to see how the balance works as a comparison with regard to service, the power companies have to fund nuclear power, fossil fuel power, renewable power, all synchronized to provide 230V 50Hz to pretty much every outlet in every house, shop, office and factory in the country, not forgetting the machines. They have to meet CO2 limits and a huge amount bureaucracy as well as the wrath of regulators and diversity in energy markets. All these things are much more expensive than the infrastructure necessary for broadband supply (just a few 'pipes' according to Dave Tomlinson), the value of the metals in the cables as a simplistic example, so, bottom line, somebody, somewhere is taking the Micky.
Again, reference to cost, the new Northern Data Centre cost is £150 million, a nuclear power station is about £3 billion, you can replace the equipment in the data centre many times over to allow for technologies relentless pace, but the transmission infrastructure cost must be miniscule compared to power distribution. So, this now circles to my argument and your point about about capacity, I believe that I do pay a proper fee for my broadband service and feel that the capacity I want should be properly available as and when I choose to use it.
Also very interesting to note that Plusnet prioritise gaming and VOIP, neither of interest to me, so just maybe my choice of broadband provider is incorrect for my usage pattern, this is something I will need to look at over the next month or so.
Anyway, it's all still working this damp morning in Gloucestershire, time to test out the iPlayer on my fancy new telly, thanks again for the superb reply.

Let's see eeh Bill........................

jojopillo
Plusnet Alumni (retired)
Plusnet Alumni (retired)
Posts: 9,786
Registered: ‎16-06-2010

Re: Hardly a new topic.......... SPEED

HI Dex,
[quote=BT email]Hi Joanne,
The VP for this circuit has been checked and has been found to be not over utilised
I've passed this on to our faults team for further investigation now, and have updated your ticket.
Jojo Smiley
Dex
Dabbler
Posts: 10
Registered: ‎15-06-2011

Re: Hardly a new topic.......... SPEED

Thanks Jojo
Have been moved over to the Extra now, the mail tells me an estimated speed of 8mbps, checked this morning with the doofer on this site and it was 6, but now it's down to 3........ so still bit of a sorry story!
Derek
jojopillo
Plusnet Alumni (retired)
Plusnet Alumni (retired)
Posts: 9,786
Registered: ‎16-06-2010

Re: Hardly a new topic.......... SPEED

Hi Derek,
Run a BT Speed test while it's bad. It does seem like traffic is slowing it down, but, as in the email they say it isn't. I'll take some advice in the morning and see where we can take from here.
Jojo Smiley
Dex
Dabbler
Posts: 10
Registered: ‎15-06-2011

Re: Hardly a new topic.......... SPEED

Hi Jojo
Pretty much rubbish tonight, 1st day on the 'upgrade'
BT speed test 1634 kbps / max of 7616, quite a poor result, less than 25%....... that's bad at 22:15.......
As an example, iPlayer runs for 10 secs, then buffers for 15-20 secs, then plays for another 10, really would hope for a better performance.
One thing worrying me is the amount of importance the Plusnet guy, Dave Tomlinson put on gaming, which is not my thing, I just want to use the big ole hard disk we call the internet to catch up on some tv.......
Derek......
jojopillo
Plusnet Alumni (retired)
Plusnet Alumni (retired)
Posts: 9,786
Registered: ‎16-06-2010

Re: Hardly a new topic.......... SPEED

HI Derek,
Did you have anything else open, or was anyone else using the internet while you ran the test?
Jojo Smiley
Dex
Dabbler
Posts: 10
Registered: ‎15-06-2011

Re: Hardly a new topic.......... SPEED

Just me, but over the WiFi as I never use a wired connection. All the other tests have been done this way, the signal is good and the router working fine.
jojopillo
Plusnet Alumni (retired)
Plusnet Alumni (retired)
Posts: 9,786
Registered: ‎16-06-2010

Re: Hardly a new topic.......... SPEED

Hi Derek,
You'd have to run a wired test, wifi results are not conclusive, as there could be many reasons that it could show a low result.
Jojo Smiley