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FTTC with TG582n not fit for purpose

Chris
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Re: FTTC with TG582n not fit for purpose

Hi all,
Just to let you know that we are aware of this thread, and are looking into the issues raised. We would like to note though that we ran an extended trial using this router and had customers seeing good throughout on wireless and didn't see a lot of wireless complaints when analysing the results of the trial data.
We'll post back when we've got more information but I just wanted to post saying that we had seen this thread.
Former Plusnet Staff member. Posts after 31st Jan 2020 are not on behalf of Plusnet.
inhost
Grafter
Posts: 182
Registered: ‎06-11-2011

Re: FTTC with TG582n not fit for purpose

The trials were ran prior to the 80mbit service becoming available so your data is irrelevant, if you do not feel this is the case then please provide the trial data for scrutiny.
Thank you for acknowledging it though.
jelv
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Re: FTTC with TG582n not fit for purpose

Seeing as we've seen a number reporting good results using the HH3 and you are owned by BT Retails would supplying the HomeHub not be a better option?
jelv (a.k.a Spoon Whittler)
   Why I have left Plusnet (warning: long post!)   
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Chris
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Re: FTTC with TG582n not fit for purpose

Quote from: inhost
The trials were ran prior to the 80mbit service becoming available so your data is irrelevant, if you do not feel this is the case then please provide the trial data for scrutiny.

We trialled it on 80/20 too.
Former Plusnet Staff member. Posts after 31st Jan 2020 are not on behalf of Plusnet.
inhost
Grafter
Posts: 182
Registered: ‎06-11-2011

Re: FTTC with TG582n not fit for purpose

Then please provide the trial data, I cannot see how it is possible that you got such massively different results to everyone else unless your environmental variables were not based on that of an avg household which in turn would render your data irrelevant.
Chris
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Re: FTTC with TG582n not fit for purpose

The trial was a customer trial, when the 80/20 trial ended we had several hundred customers on it using that router.
As I said, we're looking into the issues raised here and will post back later.
Former Plusnet Staff member. Posts after 31st Jan 2020 are not on behalf of Plusnet.
inhost
Grafter
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Registered: ‎06-11-2011

Re: FTTC with TG582n not fit for purpose

Then I assume the trials data is readily available, please provide it.
tstaddon
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Re: FTTC with TG582n not fit for purpose

Chris,
With the best will in the world, I don't think the trial data will provide the metrics that are entirely relevant to the complaint. If I were trialling FTTC/FTTP (sadly I can't, my line goes direct to the exchange) I'd benchmark
wired-> internet
wireless -> internet
wired + wireless -> internet
But under controlled conditions - one or two devices at a time.
When my kids are streaming from the media centre, I'm installing a virtual machine to my server, I've got two laptops in the house doing Windows Updates and someone's watching iPlayer on the Wii while I'm doing a videoconference on my office while my phone's using wireless to sync my corporate mailbox then I expect the performance metrics would look quite different. At that point a really decent dual band wireless router with some decent routing firmware will not even cough at the traffic, but even a good router that's 5 years old might struggle to cope.
I speak from experience, having reluctantly retired my Buffalo WHR-HP-G54 with borderline psychotic wireless signal strength on the basis it couldn't cope with more than 4 devices hammering it at the same time.
petejackson
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Re: FTTC with TG582n not fit for purpose

Hi Inhost. I’d like to address some of your points if I may.
We ran a comprehensive trial with 690 customers on ‘up to 76Mb’ FTTC. During the trial we sent two surveys out. Both of which provide the opportunity to provide us with feedback and explain the overall customer experience. There was a mix of CPE being used. During analysis of the data we didn’t pick up on wireless performance as representing a significant issue.
The TG582n router we provide has been designed to provide a good standard of connectivity to our broadband and fibre broadband services.  We know it isn’t the best performing piece of equipment in the market today in terms of raw throughput numbers, but we believe it offers good value and we trust it’s suitable for most users.
We continue to work with our suppliers and customers to look at how we can improve our products but we always have to balance reliability of connection against raw speed. For streaming hi-def video or gaming, wifi speeds of the TG582n to a single device will be more than adequate in the majority of cases and provide a reliable signal. In most average home use, you perhaps wouldn’t need approaching line speed to a single wireless device – rather the majority of customers find fibre an ideal product for multi-device use.
So providing a reliable wifi connection to multiple-devices so that you can watch hi-def video and gaming is where our priorities lie.  We’re not in the business of pushing our hardware to its maximum capability at the expense of providing a useful and reliable product to our customers. Our priority is to provide a balance between speed, reliability and cost with the assumption that our ‘up to 76Mb’ fibre product is going to be consumed by the multi-user household.
More generally, wireless is always going to be more susceptible to losing speed than Ethernet is; that's simply due to the technology and environmental factors.  It may sound obvious but in many cases changing channel and ensuring wireless ‘n’ adaptors are being used can help. Using a combination of n, g and b devices may also limit wireless throughput to the lowest common denominator.
As always, where customers are experiencing connection speeds that fall low enough to impact a good customer experience we will do our very best to help resolve those issues.
We won’t always be able to fulfil expectations though, and in regards to your specific complaint, I understand you’re in contact with our dedicated team.  They’ll be happy to discuss next steps to help resolve your complaint.
The reference you make to web-site content forms part of our service terms and conditions: “The equipment we agree to give you includes a suitable fibre-capable router” This refers to the TG582n in this context. Elsewhere reference to the BT modem is referring to the Openreach modem that is used on Fibre installation.
The T&C also states that we guarantee that the equipment that we send you will work to the relevant specification for at least 12 months and will be free from faulty design, manufacture or materials. This doesn’t guarantee specific wireless performance capability which would be impractical due to the very many environmental factors as well as hardware design that can affect wifi connection.
jelv
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Re: FTTC with TG582n not fit for purpose

Peter: You need to make it clear on the website what the limitations of the router are, otherwise it's quite reasonable for anyone to assume that as the router is designed to be used with the service you provide it can give the same performance as the connection.
I'd also be interested in seeing what proportion of the users who decide to pay the extra for fibre are using multiple devices and particularly multiple wireless devices. For them it would be quite reasonable to expect the speed to aggregate up to the line speed (or higher if doing PC to PC transfers). Many of the alternatives are capable of this, is the one you supply?
jelv (a.k.a Spoon Whittler)
   Why I have left Plusnet (warning: long post!)   
Broadband: Andrews & Arnold Home::1 (FTTC 80/20)
Line rental: Pulse 8 Home Line Rental (£14.40/month)
Mobile: iD mobile (£4/month)
inhost
Grafter
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Registered: ‎06-11-2011

Re: FTTC with TG582n not fit for purpose

Quote
We ran a comprehensive trial with 690 customers on ‘up to 76Mb’ FTTC. During the trial we sent two surveys out. Both of which provide the opportunity to provide us with feedback and explain the overall customer experience. There was a mix of CPE being used. During analysis of the data we didn’t pick up on wireless performance as representing a significant issue.

Please provide your trials data, I do not find at this stage taking your word for it acceptable.
I have no doubt that the trial was to measure the trough put of the BT Open Reach modem which by no means gives any real reflection of the TG582n wireless.
With this in mind I would ask you to retract ant previous statements that refer to this trial as a suitable product test for the TG582n wireless capabilities.
Quote
The TG582n router we provide has been designed to provide a good standard of connectivity to our broadband and fibre broadband services.  We know it isn’t the best performing piece of equipment in the market today in terms of raw throughput numbers, but we believe it offers good value and we trust it’s suitable for most users.

This is a false statement, the TG582n has nothing to do with the connection quality of the broadband this is handles by the BT openreach modem.
The raw throughput number according to the manufacturer gives the router 270mbit under optimal conditions, the router in reality does not achieve even close to 50% of this in above average artificially created conditions in which 4 chipsets were individually tested with 2 different TG582N routers, with this in ming and the number of complaints (forum posts) about the quality of this router just on the first page here I have to completely reject the last part of your statement regarding its suitability.
Quote
We continue to work with our suppliers and customers to look at how we can improve our products but we always have to balance reliability of connection against raw speed. For streaming hi-def video or gaming, wifi speeds of the TG582n to a single device will be more than adequate in the majority of cases and provide a reliable signal. In most average home use, you perhaps wouldn’t need approaching line speed to a single wireless device – rather the majority of customers find fibre an ideal product for multi-device use.

Given the absolute brick wall I hit with your complaints team I find this hard to believe, the evidence is stacked against you here, while I understand balance is important providing in most coses 33% of quoted speeds purely down to plusnet supplied equipment is not actually any type of real balance at all.
As I have all ready stated even to a single wierless N device (4 tested, 2 different TG582n's) the routers wireless cannot reach 175mbit which is the required speed to get the full speed that the BT openreach modem manages without issue, the performance is significantly worse in a multi device setup.
Quote
So providing a reliable wifi connection to multiple-devices so that you can watch hi-def video and gaming is where our priorities lie.  We’re not in the business of pushing our hardware to its maximum capability at the expense of providing a useful and reliable product to our customers. Our priority is to provide a balance between speed, reliability and cost with the assumption that our ‘up to 76Mb’ fibre product is going to be consumed by the multi-user household.

As previously stated the balance you mention does not exist with the TG582n I dont think I need to say why again, your priorities clearly do not lie with providing a reliable wireless connection as I have been told time and time again to use Ethernet instead, I have had acknowledgements that the router wirless is not the best, I have shown over and over why so I really dont understand outside of corporate pressure why you would try and spin this?
If your assomptions are that the product will be consumed by a multi device / multi user household then that actually makes things worse.
Quote
More generally, wireless is always going to be more susceptible to losing speed than Ethernet is; that's simply due to the technology and environmental factors.  It may sound obvious but in many cases changing channel and ensuring wireless ‘n’ adaptors are being used can help. Using a combination of n, g and b devices may also limit wireless throughput to the lowest common denominator.

Most budget ethernet devices and switches do not actually handle a full 100mbit i.e. around 11.5 MB/s this is also highly dependant on cable length, cable specification i.e. CAT5/5e/6 and also on the shielding and proximity to other electrical devices that cause bleed through interférence  along side the quality of the ethernet controller in the consumer device most of which are low grade devices.
On the other hand a true N300 N450 or even N600 device which can be found for <£60 such as the WNR2200 the DAP-1533 or WNDR3400 along side the very cheap BT HH3 will manage a great range with a stable wifi connection in excess of 15 - 27 MB/s with no measurable latency compared to a local ethernet loop.
As you have already read my complaint you should be aware I am not using any b/g devices so I assume you are saying that for other peoples benefit and it is a valid point but not relevant to the root cause.
Quote
As always, where customers are experiencing connection speeds that fall low enough to impact a good customer experience we will do our very best to help resolve those issues.

I have been told 3 times now by 2 different people that you dont want to communicate with me on this so I reject this completely and mor to the point buying me off with the offer of £60 to buy a different router is just insulting to the rest of the community you have not offered this too and smells of a cover up.
Quote
We won’t always be able to fulfil expectations though, and in regards to your specific complaint, I understand you’re in contact with our dedicated team.  They’ll be happy to discuss next steps to help resolve your complaint.

I dont know I have been told it is dead locked, I am looking for the root cause of this to be fixed, I am wanting a straight forward dialogue about this not a bunch of spin to keep you out of hot water, my expectations are simple enough, come up with a solution that works for everyone and correctly set customer expectations at the pre sales point, so far you have refused to do both and dead locked (Stone walled) me are my expectations unfair?
Quote
The reference you make to web-site content forms part of our service terms and conditions: “The equipment we agree to give you includes a suitable fibre-capable router” This refers to the TG582n in this context. Elsewhere reference to the BT modem is referring to the Openreach modem that is used on Fibre installation.


I know, perhaps I was not clear, my point here is the word "suitable" I am contesting the suitability of a router which has but a single primary role; to route the connection handled by other equipment not covered in this section within the consumers house hold, it fails to achieve the same speeds as the fibre connection itself, given that the router is frequently and exclusively described through out all of your pre sales information as "Wireless" this is not even implied it is sold as a statement of fact and any attempt to say you do not commit to provide a suitable wireless router is miss leading and miss selling a product.

Quote
The T&C also states that we guarantee that the equipment that we send you will work to the relevant specification for at least 12 months and will be free from faulty design, manufacture or materials. This doesn’t guarantee specific wireless performance capability which would be impractical due to the very many environmental factors as well as hardware design that can affect wifi connection.

The router does not work to its relevant specification in fair above average conditions,... simple as that.
I know there are rules to quoting whole posts but in the interests of keeping things in order I had no other choice.
I would like to further suggest this thread is made a sticky for some actual group feedback rather than handling it through an individual complaint.
Chris
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Re: FTTC with TG582n not fit for purpose

Thanks for the considered, and detailed reply.
Ultimately the router we supply is suitable for the vast majority of our customers ranging from ADSL through to Fibre. I understand that you dispute this, but the router was chosen to be a standardised device that would be suited across our range of products and services. There are always exceptions to the rule, doesn't the saying go that you can't please all the people all the time? We've tried to resolve this situation with you on an individual basis, we've explained our reasoning behind choosing this router. We're not going to provide the detailed results of the trial (we didn't get all participants authorisation to do so at the time so cannot share the data under our privacy policy).
As James has said in his ticket response to you, we'll consider putting more information during the signup process about the router but we're not going to guarantee this will happen or give timescales of this.
There really isn't much else we can add to this conversation that we haven't said in the last couple of responses.
Former Plusnet Staff member. Posts after 31st Jan 2020 are not on behalf of Plusnet.
inhost
Grafter
Posts: 182
Registered: ‎06-11-2011

Re: FTTC with TG582n not fit for purpose

Chris,
The problem is that I am contesting it with facts and numbers, you are simply spinning variations of the same line line rather than either admitting you are wrong or providing hard facts to the contrary,
I am a fair person, if you provide proof of any of the claims you are making without substance then I am happy to admit I am wrong, until that point I will not be letting this go, that much I guarantee you.
Please actually respond to my concerns and posts, you say the router is suitable, I can prove it is not, how can you prove it is (customers lack of knowledge about what they COULD be getting with suitable equipment is not evidence)
If you will not provide test data please remove any customer specific information and at the very least provide the metrics that were being scrutinised.
I know you just want to me to go away, I would want me to go away in your shoes but dont insult my and everyone else's intelligence by giving the 'can't please em all speech' I am sorry the buy me off approach did not work out for you but I do not think what I am asking is unreasonable.
inhost
Grafter
Posts: 182
Registered: ‎06-11-2011

Re: FTTC with TG582n not fit for purpose

Chris,
James response in my complaint word for word:
I will be unable to keep you apprised of any development with the web team - it is unlikely any changes that will be made.
This is not making the pair of you look good at all,
Also Chris:
Quote
the router was chosen to be a standardised device that would be suited across our range of products and services
I am still asking how you determined this, the trial data is irrelevant as this tested the WAN not the LAN.
How about I make a definitive list of questions that you guys can give definitive answers too as you seem to be either incapable of giving a fully formed and entire response or you are doing so to avoid the elements of the issue you are unwilling to comment on?
Failing that if you want to book 4 - 5 hours for a meeting with your decision makers at plusnet towers I will drive down and make my case and give a demonstration with any TG582n you throw at me showing that it is not capable, this is a genuine offer dependant on you agreeing to resolve the issue for the whole community within a 3 month period if I can show that the device is not capable of stably routing the WAN connection internally over the LAN at a speed that satisfies the 80/20 package.
HairyMcbiker
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Re: FTTC with TG582n not fit for purpose

The simple fact is the peoples expectations have been "lifted" or set by the BT advert, where MANY wifi devices are connected to the net at the same time and they ALL say WOW great speeds. This just isn't possible with your hardware. Before you say that isn't our advert, you offer the same product as BT do so it stands.
I struggle to get a simple 128K audio feed on this device so how I am meant to stream video over wifi on it?
As I said I have purchased a new router to replace it, I can't really afford it but I want to listen to my radio  Cry