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Extremely slow speeds

LiamR
Newbie
Posts: 9
Registered: ‎02-07-2008

Extremely slow speeds

I am getting nowhere with help and support on this as of yet so im wondering if anyone on here can give me any idea what might be wrong. i may aswell just post the ticket as is.
[ID: 25514240]
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Your original question  6:00pm, Tuesday 1st July 2008
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[Additional Information]
hi there, i have been experiencing technical difficulties with my broadband reliability for the past year. now i finally have the time to try to sort these issues out. for many months now we have been recieving a max download speed of 16kb/s, making even loading web pages painfully slow. since then download speeds start off at 16/kb/s then over the space of a minute seem to reduce to zero, this also applies to loading webpages where it often requires at least 10 refreshes to load a page (its as if it forgets what its doing half way through and gives up). To get to this page here it has taken a good 80 refreshes and 40 minutes, this is not acceptable.
Recently i have decided to move to the next package up "option 3" when i saw that we had managed to go over the download limit this month - the problem is there is no way of keeping our downloading in of-peek hours as the speed is so slow it often takes days to recive what we need. how can i resolve the problem?
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Your comment 6:48pm, Tuesday 1st July 2008
i thought i may aswell include some additional information so here it is:
according to my router:
Connection Speed: 512kbps down, 448 kbps Up
Line Attenuation: 59db down, 15.5 db Up
Noise Margin: 9-13 db down, 13 Up
Ill also add, the same simptoms apply on all websites and internet activities and swapping out the router and pluging it into the master phone socket has no effect. hope this helps!
[Removed] CSC Analyst 2:10am, Wednesday 2nd July 2008
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Dear Ms Ramm,
Have you tried the connection with *ONLY* the broadband equipment plugged directly into the master socket (through a different microfilter/splitter) and no other things plugged into any other extension sockets in the house/premises?
We understand that this can be inconvenient. However, this is a common reason for a lot of faults. This is especially important for accounts which have never worked, or if you have installed any other equipment which plugs into the phone line.
It is helpful when ruling out hardware faults for you to try an alternative modem or router, or try your equipment on another active broadband line. Please confirm if you have been able to do this.
If this does not help, please return this ticket for our attention so that we can test this further but please be aware if BT are called out and find the fault to be with your setup or hardware a wasted call out fee will be billed from BT.
Kind regards,
[Removed]
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Your comment 10:51am, Wednesday 2nd July 2008
If you read the additional information i gave, you will see i have already tried the above suggestions including *ONLY* the broadband equipment plugged in, two seperate routers and replacement filters. The account has worked in the past but only with download speeds of up to 128 kb/s, but for the past year it has been consistantly very low.
I would not ask for you to send out a bt engineer as i believe the fault is a side effect of your usage speed cap penalty as any download speeds we have recieved have been in multiples of 8 eg. 16, 32(rarely), 64(very rarely) - making them very suspect. we are also well under our usage limit now as we have recently upgraded to option 3 but still no change. can you please have a look at our account and give any suggestions and an idea of what speeds we should be expecting.
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Your comment 4:28pm, Wednesday 2nd July 2008
BT speedtester results are as follows:
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 384 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 350 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 95 kbps
Do these low speeds indicate a line fault? I wish the replies on these tickets could be a little faster - currently the "56 minute" average response time is being made a mockery of and the information provided has been less than helpful so far im affraid.
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Your comment 5:05pm, Wednesday 2nd July 2008
I feel in the time i have been waiting for a response i have become a bit of an expert in broadband inner workings - something i dont really need or want to know about to be honest.
Anyway from what i have read it apears our "BRAS Profile" may have been lowered due to syncronisation drop outs. Can you confirm this as a possible cause? if i dont get a reply soon ill be forced to try to deal with BT myself, but i dont know what to ask about.
Please can you help, 1 response telling me to do what i have already done is not useful in any way.
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Having waited more than 6 hours from my first reply i am getting desperate.
Can anyone clarify anything here for me?
[Moderator's note by Barry Zubel: Removed CS Agent names.  Please ensure you have read the link:rules]
24 REPLIES 24
zubel
Community Veteran
Posts: 3,793
Thanks: 4
Registered: ‎08-06-2007

Re: Extremely slow speeds

You do have a problematic line.
Whether that fault is within your own premises or external is the tricky part.
From your downstream attenuation of 59db you should be able to attain sync speeds of nearly 3MB on a perfect line.  Unfortunately, your line appears to be very noisy.
Just to double check the steps that you have done: 
1.  Have you tried plugging youe router into the test socket behind the master socket on it's own?  It's very important that this is tried in the test socket and not just the master socket as this step will completely exclude any of your internal wiring.  Please post back with your Sync speed and Noise Margin downstream when you do this.
2.  Have you tried an alternative router?  Have you tried alternative filters and/or tried without a filter at all (an old modem cable will be ideal for this, as it will have the correct plugs on both ends)
If your sync speed increases when you try the master socket, then it is likely that the problem is your internal wiring.  If the sync speed stays around the same value, then the problem is likely to be a BT issue and as such you should be able to get an FOC Engineer visit.
B.
LiamR
Newbie
Posts: 9
Registered: ‎02-07-2008

Re: Extremely slow speeds

Hi Barry
Thanks for the input, this has been driving me mad all day. Can you clarify what you mean by "test socket", as im not sure if i have one - i have 1 master phoneline socket in the house with nothing behind it (although i wouldnt say it was wired up in the traditional way).  So far I have tried 3 different filters and 2 different routers plugged into the master socket with no noticable change.
I will investigate some more and mabe rerun some tests and get back to you.
Also sorry for breaking the rules on the post i obviously read the rules a bit too quickly, Ive been reading broadband jargon all day.
EDIT:
Ok i have just rerun the test without a filter and with the shortest cable i can find into what i think is the master socket / test socket
results are as follows:
Connection Speed: 704kbps down, 448 kbps Up
Line Attenuation: 57db down, 15.5 db Up
Noise Margin: 12 db down, 13 db Up
Only thing that seems to have changed much is the connection speed. Download speed still 16kb/s after running various speed tests
EDIT2:
Gone back to original setup now.
Connection Speed: 544kbps down, 448 kbps Up
Line Attenuation: 58db down, 15.5 db Up
Noise Margin: 6-7 db down, 13 db Up
I think these values are inconsitent with what they were before so i dont think it has much to do with the wiring in my house.
EDIT3: Ah is the connection speed the same as sync speed? trouble is no matter what the sync speed is, the downloads remain at 16kb/s
MickKi
Grafter
Posts: 543
Registered: ‎30-09-2007

Re: Extremely slow speeds

The difference between the master socket and original set up is 1dB in terms of attenuation (loss of signal power due to noise of additional telephone wiring).  To be honest 1dB is neither here nor there.  A lower Noise Margin of 6-7dB ought to get you a higher sync speed under DSLMax than the previous Noise Margin of 12dB. 
The above logic would not apply exactly as described above if you have a fixed speed product.  Looking at your BT speedtester results I see an IP Profile of 350 - this is not a DSLMax profile . . .
Therefore, something is definitely amiss and my money is that there is something not right with your BT line - since tests with different filters, routers and the master socket test would have eliminated any internal wiring causes.
Denzil
Grafter
Posts: 1,733
Registered: ‎31-07-2007

Re: Extremely slow speeds

If you have the standard two part BT socket it has a removable lower section held in by two screws. If you remove the removable section you will find the test socket behind it. Just try it plugged in to that and tell us what the sync speed is. Yes, sync speed and connection speed are the same thing.
With a 12dB margin and 57dB attenuation you should be syncing at much more than 704kbps, so it does suggest a line fault, but do try the test socket first.
You haven't said what model of router you have, but they normally have a log tucked away somewhere on the setup pages. The log will have entries for disconnections and could be worth a look through to see if there are a lot of them, and if there is any pattern e.g. same time of day.
zubel
Community Veteran
Posts: 3,793
Thanks: 4
Registered: ‎08-06-2007

Re: Extremely slow speeds

The Master socket should be split horizontally, with two screws in the lower section.  If you unscrew those, you can pull the bottom section out, and you will see another socket within - this is the 'Test socket'

The master socket is where the line enters your house.  You may not have one of these 'NTE' type sockets, which is unfortunate for testing purposes.
However..
If you DO have a split-face NTE Master, do try it and report back your Connection (Sync) speec. 
Your 'throughput' speed will not change as it will be restricted by the BT equipment because of the poor quality of the line.  In all the following posts we will primarily be interested in only the Sync speed.
A 350 profile *is* one of the DSLMax profiles iirc - just rarely seen as 99.99% of lines will support 512k or above - and judging from your attenuation you should too!
What we will do is work on getting your Sync speed, and stable.  Once this is done we can then work on getting BT to reduce your 'Target noise margin' which will increase your throughput further.
Word of warning - It will still take at least 3-5 days after any sync improvement before your throughput will actually increase.  Speed tests will not be any use, so just keep reporting back changes to sync speed!
B.
MickKi
Grafter
Posts: 543
Registered: ‎30-09-2007

Re: Extremely slow speeds

Quote from: Barry

A 350 profile *is* one of the DSLMax profiles iirc - just rarely seen as 99.99% of lines will support 512k or above - and judging from your attenuation you should too!

You probably know better, but from a table with BRAS profiles I saw posted by BT they went like:
Line RateBRAS Profile
288-575250
576-1151500
1152-17271000
etc...etc...
zubel
Community Veteran
Posts: 3,793
Thanks: 4
Registered: ‎08-06-2007

Re: Extremely slow speeds

Lol - I don't necessarily know better and feel free to correct me!
However, I do think the 350 was one of the ones introduced more recently.  However, the comms guys will definately know.
B.
LiamR
Newbie
Posts: 9
Registered: ‎02-07-2008

Re: Extremely slow speeds

hey guys thanks for the help here.
My router that i connect with is a "Netgear DG834".
the other test one is little more than a circuit board left over from my last conexant thing (cant remember what model) but it still does the job of connecting and displaying results, just does not like sharing bandwidth between computers.
Is there likely to be any difference in results using the "test" socket rather than the main one? I can confirm the face plate is a standrd one but before i rake about for a screwdriver it would be handy to know. The rest of the family is asleep  Wink
Ah MickKi are you suggesting there is not much point in using the test socket?
Im currently having a look in my router for connection logs anyone know where they are likely to be?
Also isnt it strange that my noise margin should fluctuate so much on the same setup? i thought its value was determined by BT
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Anyway, i have connected to the test socket - results are as follows:
Connection Speed: 992kbps down, 448 kbps Up
Line Attenuation: 58 db down, 15.5 db Up
Noise Margin: 12 db down, 11 db Up
Sync rate is now higher allthough this is the first result outside of peak time if that makes any difference.
i will set everything up in the original way also for comparison.
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speed through all the wires of normal setup is as follows:
Connection Speed: 768kbps down, 448 kbps Up
Line Attenuation: 58 db down, 15.5 db Up
Noise Margin: 12 db down, 13 db Up
much the same as before so i guess the off peak time makes no difference.
Be3G
Grafter
Posts: 6,111
Thanks: 1
Registered: ‎05-04-2007

Re: Extremely slow speeds

Quote from: Barry
However, I do think the 350 was one of the ones introduced more recently.

Yep, such a profile does exist.
LiamR
Newbie
Posts: 9
Registered: ‎02-07-2008

Re: Extremely slow speeds

With 992kbps being the highest sync speed i seem to be able to get from shortening internal wiring should i hope to acheive anything faster given the noise on my line?
MickKi
Grafter
Posts: 543
Registered: ‎30-09-2007

Re: Extremely slow speeds

Quote from: LiamR

Is there likely to be any difference in results using the "test" socket rather than the main one? I can confirm the face plate is a standrd one but before i rake about for a screwdriver it would be handy to know. The rest of the family is asleep  Wink
Ah MickKi are you suggesting there is not much point in using the test socket?

Quite the opposite.  Using the master test socket isolates all your other house wiring and extensions and tests only the BT line as it comes into your house.  A noticeable difference between this measurement (also do a BT Speedtest here) and your normal setup will tell us if there's anything wrong with your house wiring.
Try not to resync too often.  Otherwise the BT exchange equipment will increase your Noise Margin from the nominal 6dB value and you will get lower sync speeds.
MickKi
Grafter
Posts: 543
Registered: ‎30-09-2007

Re: Extremely slow speeds

Quote from: Be3G
Quote from: Barry
However, I do think the 350 was one of the ones introduced more recently.

Yep, such a profile does exist.

Ahh, it seems that my list of profiles is out of date then . . .
In that case LiamR is on DSLMax.
LiamR
Newbie
Posts: 9
Registered: ‎02-07-2008

Re: Extremely slow speeds

Hi guys
Just as an update before i try to find a way to move my whole setup closer to the master socket as a permanent solution, my download speed has gone up to 41kb/s overnight
Yes i think i do have DSLMax, i am on up to 8mb option 3 (although this seems like very wishfull thinking now).
It seems according to BT my line can only support a 512kbps connection, although when we first joined they claimed 2mbps... is there any reason why the dramatic reduction could have taken place? we have often susspected a line splitter but BT assures us there isnt one and i cant see one on the line.
zubel
Community Veteran
Posts: 3,793
Thanks: 4
Registered: ‎08-06-2007

Re: Extremely slow speeds

Ok, your sync speed jumped up to nearly 1mb in the test socket which indicates that your internal wiring may be causing some interference issues.
Do you normally plug your router into the master socket, or is it on an extension?
The reason I ask is that you can purchase an ADSL Nation Filtered Faceplate  This replaces the bottom section of your BT Master socket and essentially filters all of your extensions from there.  It provides two sockets in it - one for a phone and one for a router.  
If you purchased one of those, you would have to plug your Netgear directly into the master socket, hence my question.
Judging from the increase in sync speed, I think the next step would be to obtain one of these.  This should (hopefully) give you around a 992K sync, but more importantly it should be stable.
If it is stable at this point (and this would take 3-4 days of checking) then the next step would be to request that Plusnet reduce your Target SNR down to 6dB.  The Target SNR is generally increased in increments of 3dB automatically when noise or interference is detected on the line.  Each 3dB increase usually drops your sync speed by around 800Kbps (if memory serves).  Dropping your target SNR should theoretically give you a sync speed of approximately 2300Kbps.
Another important thing to check is whether there is any audible noise on the line.  Get a normal, corded telephone and plug it into the master test socket.  Pick the handset up and dial 17070 and choose option 2 (Quiet line test).  Listen carefully for any crackles, hissing or popping.  If you hear anything at all, you should call your telephone provider and mention that you have a noisy line. Do not mention broadband or they will redirect you back to your ISP.  
Hope that information helps, but as always if you have any questions please feel free to come back to us!
B.