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Email lost / undelivered

DavidHH
Grafter
Posts: 68
Registered: 03-08-2007

Email lost / undelivered

I don't seem to have been receiving much email recently, so tried sending a message to myself. I got an email back saying
"This message was created automatically by mail delivery software.
A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its
recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed:
  david@xxxx.plus.com"
It was sent to the address that it said it couldn't deliver to!
Full information below.
X-Daemon-Classification: INNOCENT
Envelope-to: david@xxxx.plus.com
Delivery-date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 13:03:01 +0000
Received: from exprod5mx212.postini.com ([64.18.0.71] helo=psmtp.com)
  by pih-sunmxcore14.plus.net with smtp (PlusNet MXCore v2.00) id 1JCE6e-0006mq-1v
  for david@xxxx.plus.com; Tue, 08 Jan 2008 13:03:00 +0000
Received: from source ([212.159.14.213]) (using TLSv1) by exprod5mx212.postini.com ([64.18.4.11]) with SMTP;
Tue, 08 Jan 2008 05:02:57 PST
Received: by ptb-relay02.plus.net with local (Exim) id 1JCE6a-0003yQ-Dj
for david@xxxx.plus.com; Tue, 08 Jan 2008 13:02:56 +0000
X-Failed-Recipients: david@xxxx.plus.com
Auto-Submitted: auto-generated
From: Mail Delivery System <Mailer-Daemon@ptb-relay02.plus.net>
To: david@xxxx.plus.com
Subject: Mail delivery failure: returning message to sender
Message-Id: <E1JCE6a-0003yQ-Dj@ptb-relay02.plus.net>
Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 13:02:56 +0000
X-pstn-neptune: 111/90/0.81/70
X-pstn-levels: (S:21.22611/99.90000 R:95.9108 P:95.9108 M:97.0282 C:98.6951 )
X-pstn-settings: 1 (0.1500:0.1500) gt3 gt2 gt1 r p m c
X-pstn-addresses: from <Mailer-Daemon@ptb-relay02.plus.net> [db-null]
X-pstn-neptune-rslt: qtine
X-PN-VirusFiltered: by PlusNet MXCore (v4.00)
X-DSPAM-Result: Innocent
X-DSPAM-Processed: Tue Jan  8 13:03:01 2008
X-DSPAM-Confidence: 0.5867
X-DSPAM-Improbability: 1 in 143 chance of being spam
X-DSPAM-Probability: 0.0000
X-DSPAM-Factors: 27,
Received*TLSv1), 0.00342,
Received*(using, 0.00445,
From*Daemon, 0.00548,
From*<Mailer, 0.00839,
X-pstn-settings*1, 0.99141,
X-pstn-settings*(0.1500, 0.99141,
X-pstn-settings*0.1500), 0.99138,
X-pstn-addresses*Daemon, 0.01000,
xxxx, 0.01000,
xxxx, 0.01000,
Received*([64.18.4.11]), 0.99000,
Received*exprod5mx212.postini.com, 0.99000,
Received*exprod5mx212.postini.com, 0.99000,
X-pstn-addresses*<Mailer, 0.01000,
X-pstn-addresses*ptb, 0.01000,
Auto-Submitted*generated, 0.01224,
Auto-Submitted*auto, 0.01454,
Received*helo=psmtp.com), 0.01536,
postini, 0.01599,
relay02, 0.01613,
(Exim), 0.02180,
From*ptb, 0.03063,
From*System, 0.03392,
ptb, 0.04524,
xxxx, 0.05341,
xxxx, 0.05341,
headers, 0.05348
X-MSK: BYS=0.000000,HRC=0.349304
This message was created automatically by mail delivery software.
A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its
recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed:
  david@xxxx.plus.com
    SMTP error from remote mailer after end of data:
    host mx-postini.core.plus.net [64.18.4.14]: 571 Message Refused
------ This is a copy of the message, including all the headers. ------
Return-path: <david@xxxx.plus.com>
Received: from [86.132.255.158] (helo=davidxxxx-PC.xxxx.plus.com)
by ptb-relay02.plus.net with esmtp (Exim) id 1JCE6W-0003ry-B4
for david@xxxx.plus.com; Tue, 08 Jan 2008 13:02:52 +0000
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9
Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 13:02:59 +0000
To: david xxxx <david@xxxx.plus.com>
From: David xxxx <david@xxxx.plus.com>
Subject: checking
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
checking
23 REPLIES
Community Gaffer
Community Gaffer
Posts: 13,291
Thanks: 1,065
Fixes: 86
Registered: 04-04-2007

Re: Email lost / undelivered

Taking a look at this now.
Edit: Seems OK. Your account is set up fine at Postini's end and we can see that you're using SMTP auth from a BT connection.
Me and a few of my colleagues have just sent some test emails and they were all received without problem.

Bob Pullen
Plusnet Product Team
If I've been helpful then please give thanks ⤵

ddixon
Newbie
Posts: 5
Registered: 30-07-2007

Re: Email lost / undelivered

I have an open ticket (23783787) for a similar problem.  I have a mailing list set up on my account - let's call it w@xxx.force9.co.uk.
Messages from me to the list (w@...) get through OK.  List administration messages (which have to be sent from the postmaster account), e.g. to w-subscribe@... or to w-list@...) generate the same error:
    SMTP error from remote mailer after end of data:
    host mx-postini.core.plus.net [64.18.4.11]: 571 Message Refused
w-subscribe@... messages from a non-Force9 account get through OK!
So you're not alone, and some setting is wrong somewhere ...
mikeb
Grafter
Posts: 367
Registered: 10-06-2007

Re: Email lost / undelivered

All those bounces appear to be the very same SMTP error as received from postini rejecting the message because they have decided (quite incorrectly) that it is definite spam.  It is not the same error as received for an A/C not configured at the postini end. 
This seems like pretty much the same sort of problem I was getting during my tests a while ago except that postini were then just quietly dumping the messages rather than formally rejecting them as they should have been. During my tests, significant numbers of messages were just disappearing until some configuration change was done to reject them with a #571. 
Concerning Sad and probably another good example demonstrating why the fundamental problem with postini scoring some genuine emails so low needs sorting NOW rather than trying to get around it with some form of whitelisting.  Whitelisting simply will not work if postini have already dumped the message due to what appear to be serious flaws in their system !
However, can I put 50p E/W on one or more relay servers appearing on a postini naughty boy list just in case that's what it turns out to be ?
Suggestion to users having problems: try sending the messages directly to mx-postini.core.plus.net rather than via the PN relay servers to see if relay is causing the problem. I seemed to have more problems when using relay than when sending direct for unexplained reasons. If you still get a #571 from postini then it's almost certainly something cooky at their end rather than a blacklisted relay or whatever.
Community Gaffer
Community Gaffer
Posts: 13,291
Thanks: 1,065
Fixes: 86
Registered: 04-04-2007

Re: Email lost / undelivered

I'll be continuing to chase this up first thing tomorrow. I'll report any findings back to this thread as soon as I have them.
Edit: Problem raised for investigation (49175).

Bob Pullen
Plusnet Product Team
If I've been helpful then please give thanks ⤵

stillorgan
Newbie
Posts: 5
Registered: 09-01-2008

Re: Email lost / undelivered

Quote from: mikeb
However, can I put 50p E/W on one or more relay servers appearing on a postini naughty boy list just in case that's what it turns out to be ?

I wonder if some relays ARE blocked because..
I cannot send emails through my email account (xxx@username.force9.co.uk) with  Outlook via relay when I am connected with my new SKY broadband.  I get the 'relay not permitted' error' 
However, using exactly the same Outlook settings for my xxx@username.force9.co.ukaccount, I AM able to send emails via BT broadband.
Outlook settings:
Outgoing mail server (SMTP): relay.force9.net, outgoing SMTP authorisation required, port 25, not SSL
Any suggestions please if I need different outlook settings when connected through SKY?  Or is this an issue where some relays are being blocked by Postini?
Thanks
Alan
mikeb
Grafter
Posts: 367
Registered: 10-06-2007

Re: Email lost / undelivered

Yes, in your specific case, it would appear that relaying is being blocked but that is quite intentional and totally correct.  The relay servers are for use by PN customers and not $ky customers.  It is therefore not in any way surprising IMHO that you CAN send mail via relay when connected to the PN network but NOT when connected to the $ky network.  You need to use whatever settings (including relay servers) that are appropriate for the $ky network when using this network and use appropriate settings for the PN network when using that network.  I would guess BT works because of PN and BT are related and some PN customers do actually connect via BT as part of an old(ish) trial.  The error also suggests that authenticated SMTP is now available ... I didn't know that, I thought relay servers were only available when connected via the PN network.
I have no idea what the appropriate settings are for $ky or even how to make outlook do the 'right' thing because I do not use either of these but I'm quite sure someone who has "been there,  done that, bought the tee" will wander past shortly and be able to help Smiley
N/A

Re: Email lost / undelivered

Worth noting that SMTP Authentication does work at the minute on the PN relays, so if you enter your username and password, you should be able to send mails via the PN relay from a Sky connection.
Community Veteran
Posts: 26,686
Thanks: 910
Fixes: 10
Registered: 10-04-2007

Re: Email lost / undelivered

Worth noting also that it appears it has to be the account username and password that is required, not account+mailbox to authenticate to the PN relays.
jelv (a.k.a Spoon Whittler)
   Why I have left Plusnet (warning: long post!)   
Broadband: Andrews & Arnold Home::1 (FTTC 80/20)
Line rental: Pulse 8 Home Line Rental (£13/month)
Mobile: iD mobile (£4/month)
N/A

Re: Email lost / undelivered

Also worth noting Wink that its not been decided if this will be a permanent option - hence the lack of advertising about the fact that it works.
Use it now, it might not be around for ever!
stillorgan
Newbie
Posts: 5
Registered: 09-01-2008

Re: Email lost / undelivered

Thanks for the quick replies.
Following James-H, I changed my outlook settings to authorisation not required; then sent a test email to myself  (Xxx@username.force9.co.uk) while connected via SKY broadband.  This failed with Error 550 Relay not Permitted.
Then, following jelv's suggestion I tried Outlook settings of: Authorisation required, and logon using username (my usual force9 username) and password.
When I sent the email this time a window popped up:
Enter Network Password, Server: relay.force9.net, and requesting my username &pw.  I entered my force9 username & pw but this was not accepted and the window popped up again; after several tries I clicked 'Cancel' and got this message:

Task 'xxx@xxxxxx.force9.co.uk - Sending' reported error (0x800CCC92) : 'Your e-mail server rejected your login. Verify your user name and password in your account properties. Under Tools, click E-mail accounts.'

Any further ideas please?  (Don't forget I can send emails when connected thru BT broadband!, so why are my emails through SKY broadband being rejected?)
Thnaks again
Alan
Superuser
Superuser
Posts: 2,816
Thanks: 530
Fixes: 5
Registered: 06-04-2007

Re: Email lost / undelivered

PlusNet use some of BT's network through RIN.  I don't know if the IP Addresses PlusNet get from BT for this are used by BT as well.  If they are then the relay servers will have been opened up so RIN users can send mail via the relay servers.
I think for the SMTP auth to work you need to user you mail portal username and password, not a mailbox username and password.  I'm not 100% on that though as I've not tried it.
Phil
Community Veteran
Posts: 3,789
Registered: 08-06-2007

Re: Email lost / undelivered

Are the F9 relays enabled for auth, or is it just the Plusnet relays?
(or are they the same boxes?)

[barry@gandalf ~]$ nslookup relay.force9.net
Server:        192.168.1.4
Address:        192.168.1.4#53
Non-authoritative answer:
Name:  relay.force9.net
Address: 212.159.11.37
[barry@gandalf ~]$ nslookup relay.plus.net
Server:        192.168.1.4
Address:        192.168.1.4#53
Non-authoritative answer:
Name:  relay.plus.net
Address: 212.159.11.46
[barry@gandalf ~]$

Different IPs, but maybe the same pool of servers - perhaps Mr Wild could enlighten us?
B.
stillorgan
Newbie
Posts: 5
Registered: 09-01-2008

Re: Email lost / undelivered

Quote from: pjmarsh

I think for the SMTP auth to work you need to user you mail portal username and password, not a mailbox username and password.  I'm not 100% on that though as I've not tried it.
Phil

Thanks for ongoing feedback guys.
I have only one username and pw with force9. This is the one I have used for ages  to collect my email (usually!) and also if I wish to use webmail or access my force9 account details. I don't understand what my 'mail portal username'  means, or how I could find it.
Alan
Superuser
Superuser
Posts: 2,816
Thanks: 530
Fixes: 5
Registered: 06-04-2007

Re: Email lost / undelivered

oops sorry, that should have been main portal username.  That is the one you log into http://portal.plus.net with.  You can have other mailboxes with usernames as username+mailboxname.
Phil