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Disconnects/Noise margin problems after dark

Anotherone
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Registered: ‎31-08-2007

Re: Disconnects/Noise margin problems after dark

That certainly does shed some light on it! If I've got this right, the study is on the very top floor. I'll post back later with some thoughts on how to best resolve this absolute mess, need to give it a bit of thought, and I've a couple of other domestic chores to do.
Three or four questions you could answer in the mean time -
Is the "master" on the ground floor nearest the garage or is the socket used for sky nearest it? Is the cable between floors going through any conduit, or is it buried in plaster? Is there a sensible route from the garage to the nearest ground floor socket if a new cable was fiitted ie through door frames, along skirting or picture rail or whatever? How easy might it be to route new cable from the ground floor up through each floor to the top?
Palmski
Grafter
Posts: 84
Registered: ‎21-01-2010

Re: Disconnects/Noise margin problems after dark

I'm glad it makes sense to someone! There is no rush, we've been living with this for a while so a few more days won't hurt.
Quote from: Anotherone
Is the "master" on the ground floor nearest the garage or is the socket used for sky nearest it?

Actually they are probably equidistant.
Quote from: Anotherone
Is the cable between floors going through any conduit, or is it buried in plaster?

Buried in plaster from what I can see, some lateral distance is probably covered under the floorboards as well.
Quote from: Anotherone
Is there a sensible route from the garage to the nearest ground floor socket if a new cable was fiitted ie through door frames, along skirting or picture rail or whatever?

Yes, for both downstairs sockets, although my DIY skills are weak I think even I could manage that.
Quote from: Anotherone
How easy might it be to route new cable from the ground floor up through each floor to the top?

Not so simple this one. As well as getting from the bottom of the house to the top it also needs to go from the front to the back. I can't see how it can be done with my limited ability without leaving wires trailing everywhere which I can safely assume won't be acceptable to my wife  Wink
A potential workaround could be using a powerline adapter to get from downstairs to upstairs - I do have one set up at the moment for my media server - but I would guess that is probably not ideal, although I'm currently getting 240 Mbps over it according to the software that came with it.
jelv
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Re: Disconnects/Noise margin problems after dark

You know you would need just one extra powerline adapter? They work as a network, not just in pairs.
jelv (a.k.a Spoon Whittler)
   Why I have left Plusnet (warning: long post!)   
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Anotherone
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Re: Disconnects/Noise margin problems after dark

Powerline adapters are not the solution to this wiring mess. I'm afraid.
As posted before, I'll respond later on the wiring.
Palmski
Grafter
Posts: 84
Registered: ‎21-01-2010

Re: Disconnects/Noise margin problems after dark

@jelv, no I didn't know that, interesting, thanks. However fortunately for me I wouldn't need to get any more, the two rooms are already connected.
@Anotherone, I realise powerline adapters aren't the complete solution. However I believe it *could* be a solution to getting the internet upstairs if we can get the downstairs wired correctly. How viable/reliable it would be I don't honestly know. However I have been streaming my music to work from my media server over the internet via those powerline adapters without any problem. During the day of course Wink
jelv
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Re: Disconnects/Noise margin problems after dark

I haven't been following this topic closely but was thinking forget the telephone extension to upstairs completely (or make sure it was on the telephone side of a filter). Router downstairs with a powerline and then powerline(s) upstairs.
Another option is:
Router -> powerline -> powerline -> multiport Ethernet switch -> multiple PCs
Ethernet switches are not much more than £5.
jelv (a.k.a Spoon Whittler)
   Why I have left Plusnet (warning: long post!)   
Broadband: Andrews & Arnold Home::1 (FTTC 80/20)
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Palmski
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Re: Disconnects/Noise margin problems after dark

Yes disconnecting the upstairs phone sockets and using the powerline adapter was my thought for a fallback option if doing all the wiring seemed too much for me. I was unsure if the powerline adapter would be adequate for the job - given the dodgy wiring I've been seeing on the phone lines I'm quite sure the power circuits are in exactly the same sort of mess. Certainly our fuse board has electricians getting on to the Antiques Roadshow for advice. When I checked this morning the connection speed reported by the Solwise software was ~240 Mbps.
jelv
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Re: Disconnects/Noise margin problems after dark

Quote from: Palmski
Certainly our fuse board has electricians getting on to the Antiques Roadshow for advice.

The house we left in January pre-dated circuit breakers and had wired fuses. I was using powerlines across ring mains connected to different fuse boxes.
jelv (a.k.a Spoon Whittler)
   Why I have left Plusnet (warning: long post!)   
Broadband: Andrews & Arnold Home::1 (FTTC 80/20)
Line rental: Pulse 8 Home Line Rental (£14.40/month)
Mobile: iD mobile (£4/month)
Anotherone
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Re: Disconnects/Noise margin problems after dark

Right, just a few comments to start, you are lucky anything works at all! The line from the garage goes to the socket you have your house phone & sky plugged into and is the only one that would work with a telephone due to mis-wiring. I assume the sky is plugged in via the filter?
The NTE5a is an old BT one. The socket that the house phone & sky are plugged into is an LJU Master, does it have a logo on the front?
Did anything work when the NTE front plate was plugged in? With the wiring as it is, I not sure how it would still work. (Wiring connections changes to follow).
OK the good news - The cable from the 2nd floor to the top floor is fine, as is the cable running between the two sockets on the ground floor.
The bad news - the cable from the NTE5 to the second floor will need to be replaced as will the cable from the garage BT18 box to the ground floor socket where the phone/sky are plugged in.
Which of the two ground floor sockets would give the easiest/neatest cable run to the 2nd floor socket?  Out of interest, would you need both ground floor sockets - for future possibilities? (you obviously use the phone/sky one).
OK, interim wiring changes - when your IDC tool arrives.
First, make a written note of which wires are connected where on each socket just in case you need to put things back for some very odd reason. (I suppose you could always look at the photos stored on your computer, but still handy to have a written note). You could even print off this post.
Second, make sure you have your original modem/router lead and a spare filter handy just in case. Use the Disconnect method and the power down the modem/router.
Third, any disconnected wires should be coiled back with other disconnected wires, with no bare ends so they can't inadvertently touch any terminals.
At the LJU Master socket downstairs, that is the phone/sky socket - do the following -
Remove the Orange-white wire from terminal 5 and leave disconnected. That's the one in the cable that has Blue-white, White-blue & White-orange wires in it. The other looking darker orange wire must remain in terminal 5, as must the wires remain in terminal 2. This orange wire and the blue wire are the incoming line from the garage. Check your phone is still working, no crackles, just to re-assure yourself.
Remove the White-orange wire from terminal 3 and leave disconnected.
Remove the White-blue wire from terminal 4 and fit it to terminal 5. Again, check your phone is still working, no crackles,  just to re-assure yourself.
At all times make sure the connections on 2 & 5 are sound, otherwise if you have a bad connection you may get audible crackles.
At the NTE5 front plate, remove both wires from terminal 3.
At the 2nd floor socket remove both wires from terminal 3.
Take a phone with you as you go, you don't need a filter as your modem/router is off and check the phone now works in each socket with no audible crackles. Go back and refit the NTE5 front plate and check the phone is working in every socket. If it works before this point but not after, unplug the front plate again, as there is something faulty on the back plate, just leave the front plate unplugged for now.
Right, if everything has gone to plan and all ok, plug in the modem/router and power up. You should get sync at a better speed than you have had. If you don't get sync but the phone worked, use your original modem/router lead and a filter to connect with.
The wiring changes should mean you get less severe problems with noise margin changes and better speed, but until the old/poor standard cables are replaced, things won't be as good as they could get.
Post back with some stats and we could look at the future wiring options.
Palmski
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Registered: ‎21-01-2010

Re: Disconnects/Noise margin problems after dark

OK I won't have a chance to try all this until the weekend but that certainly looks very doable. To answer the few questions:
* Sky is plugged in via a filter (both boxes).
* The LJU Master is completely blank at the front, no branding.
* Broadband goes off when the NTE frontplate is plugged in but the phone still works. It used to work properly but it's probably not now as a result of me reconnecting things badly after my initial attempt to unplug the ring wire.
* If I had to pick a socket to run a wire to the second floor from it would be the sky/phone socket, however I'm not convinced I am the man for the job given the length of the cable routing required and the number of rooms/doorways/stairs it would need to cross.
* We are currently using both downstairs sockets, the NTE5 socket is used for a second Sky box (currently unplugged from the phone).
I'll report back more once I've done the changes at the weekend. Many thanks for the help, fingers crossed it does the job!
Palmski
Grafter
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Registered: ‎21-01-2010

Re: Disconnects/Noise margin problems after dark

Right, wiring changes all made, amazing how easy it is when you've got someone who knows what they are doing providing instructions.  Wink
It looks promising at the moment here are the stats taken from the router before I disconnected:
                          Downstream      Upstream 
  SNR Margin :        6.1                        5.6 db
  Line Attenuation : 44.0                      38.3  db
  Data Rate :            6624                    828  kbps
  Max Rate :            8528                      836  kbps
  POWER :              0.0                        12.3  dbm
  CRC :                    282                        0
and now after the wiring change:
                          Downstream        Upstream 
  SNR Margin :        13.4                      5.8 db
  Line Attenuation : 37.0                      20.3  db
  Data Rate :            6655                    1144  kbps
  Max Rate :              14880                  1144  kbps
  POWER :                0.0                        12.3  dbm
  CRC :                      0                            0
Now I'm guessing that the sync speed is still low because my profile has dropped due to the low rate I've been seeing recently since my previous abortive attempt to sort out the wiring. However it is abundantly clear that the SNR is vastly improved which should hopefully mean I'll end up with faster speeds. I'll run router stats for the rest of the day and see what happens to it over time, but fingers crossed this will be the fix I needed.
ReedRichards
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Re: Disconnects/Noise margin problems after dark

It seems to me that the big difference is in your line attenuation.  Before it was 44dB, now 37dB.  A 7 dB difference means that your downstream signal is now five times stronger than it was before.
I would have thought the best thing to do now is to leave things alone for a few days to see if everything is stable then, if it is, ask Plusnet to set your line to retrain.   
spraxyt
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Re: Disconnects/Noise margin problems after dark

It looks line your line has been banded due to the connection problems which will be limiting your maximum sync speed to 6656kbps. Given a stable connection the DLM may in time remove that.
However now that steps have been taken to improve internal wiring leaving things alone over the weekend as RR suggested should demonstrate a stable connection. With that evidence the Digital Care Team might be able to initiate a reset on Monday to put your line into training mode which should give you much better speeds. Smiley
David
Anotherone
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Re: Disconnects/Noise margin problems after dark

Hi Palmski,
spraxyt is definitely right, the connection certainly looks banded, no doubt because of the repeated drops you were suffering from previously.
You are right the large increase in SNRM should see  a good increase in speed when the Target SNRM is reset. Possibly to around 11Mbps with the current attenuation which has improved somewhat as your modem/router is now being fed direct from the line rather than via the bell capacitor as things were previously wired.
The actual speed you may achieve and stability, will be dependant on how much interference the line still picks up with the two lengths of non-CW1308 cable. An indication of that would be if you could take some stats now and post (the noise margin whilst it is dark is the clue).
Have a good think about a possible route for a new length of cable from either of your ground floor sockets to your second floor. Check whether the existing cable is actually in buried trunking for part of the current route. We'll talk about further re-wiring in due course.
Palmski
Grafter
Posts: 84
Registered: ‎21-01-2010

Re: Disconnects/Noise margin problems after dark

Looks as though I'll still be struggling then, the graph from yesterday afternoon / last night shows the noise margin dipping down to 11 from 13 as the night wears on. I don't know what those big drops are being caused by, that is something new which I wasn't seeing previously. Looks to be caused by something which is periodically switching on and off.
I'm not too fussed about having the fastest line possible, where we were before with download speeds of ~8M would be just fine, just as long as it is stable.
I'll have another look where the line from downstairs to upstairs runs, it is behind coving downstairs for a stretch, but at some point it must make its way under the floorboards and up inside the wall - none of that is visible.