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Disconnections Low SNR at Evening

ONeill
Grafter
Posts: 86
Registered: 09-01-2014

Disconnections Low SNR at Evening


It seems like I'm still having the same problem, now it's about the 6/7 one I've had since I've joined plusnet, think it must be down to rein or a line fault.
I can have a good sync during the day but from any time from 18:00 hours on it can start, my SNR will slowly go do way down like from 3.0 db to 1.0db or can go right down to 0 and show a lot of numbers but it is still connected in router, still have DSL stats but can't surf any website as it takes to long to load and then times out, can't even ping from cmd, in game it goes from being good to a lot of packetloss, like laggy and teleporting round the map. the only way to get back online is to restart the router which in turn syncs me lower.
Never had this sort of problem with O2 would stay rock stable 24/
Just happen again at 18:22 according router log.
SNR started falling from 3.0db at about 17:15 when the street lights were coming on then for the next hour it fell to 2.0db it would then go up and down from 1.9 db-2.4 db.
Router stats during the problem, when it was still connected to the internet but could not load or ping anything

Uptime: 0 days, 2:31:35

DSL Type: ITU-T G.992.5

Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 864 / 5,238

Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [B/B]: 0 / 0

Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.6 / 0.0

Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 32.8 / 53.5

SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 9.0 / 429496728.0

System Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / ----

Chipset Vendor ID (Local/Remote): BDCM / IFTN

Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Link (Remote): -

Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 1,426 / 0

FEC Errors (Up/Down): 108 / 110,771

CRC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 82,463

HEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 171,117

Notice what my SNR is playing at  Cry
Hitting connect in the router at the time comes up with this message

Connection could not be established: Could not bring up link

When it did come back after a restart it took 2 tries at the connect button to connect back up, new stats after reboot

Uptime: 0 days, 0:14:55

DSL Type: ITU-T G.992.5

Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 864 / 4,025

Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [kB/kB]: 220.89 / 682.06

Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.6 / 0.0

Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 32.8 / 53.0

SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 8.8 / 3.0

System Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / ----

Chipset Vendor ID (Local/Remote): BDCM / IFTN

Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Link (Remote): -

Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 63 / 0

FEC Errors (Up/Down): 6 / 790,017

CRC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 71

HEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 71

Notice the SNR is what I had before  at 3.0 db but look at my FEC errors the more you refreash the page the worse it gets.
And all this after we had 3 power cuts round here, I really do hope that some one can help as this is getting annoying now having to restart my router when I'm in the middle of doing some thing else and the fact that I can have a good sync during the day and good SNR but come eving time it starts to play up.. Sad

New router at 23:16 4 hours and 21 minutes after being connected, SNR has now come back up to 7.6 db and the FEC error rates have now stopped


Uptime: 0 days, 4:21:14

DSL Type: ITU-T G.992.5

Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 864 / 4,025

Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/MB]: 19.70 / 248.96

Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.6 / 0.0

Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 32.8 / 53.0

SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 8.8 / 7.5

System Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / ----

Chipset Vendor ID (Local/Remote): BDCM / IFTN

Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Link (Remote): -

Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 891 / 0

FEC Errors (Up/Down): 569 / 11,120,633

CRC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 1,132

HEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 1,393


Router Stats this morning SNR is now upto 9.6db and FEC errors have stopped.

Uptime: 0 days, 17:05:37

DSL Type: ITU-T G.992.5

Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 864 / 4,025

Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/GB]: 82.90 / 2.13

Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.6 / 0.0

Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 32.8 / 53.0

SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 8.7 / 9.6

System Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / ----

Chipset Vendor ID (Local/Remote): BDCM / IFTN

Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Link (Remote): -

Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 935 / 0

FEC Errors (Up/Down): 3,564 / 11,127,739

CRC Errors (Up/Down): 6 / 1,192

HEC Errors (Up/Down): 6 / 1,758
108 REPLIES
ONeill
Grafter
Posts: 86
Registered: 09-01-2014

Re: Disconnections Low SNR at Evening

At 17:15 when the street lights came on it fell to 9.0 db and been up and down by 0.1/0.2 db,
18.05 it fell from 8.3 db to 3.6 db,
18.07 it's at 3.1
Update 1
SNR is now sitting at 3.0/3.1 db and SNR upstream fell from 8.9 db to 8.5 db
Logs only show these 2 things

 Feb 3 18:04:22 IDS proto parser : tcp null port (1 of 1) : 113.108.21.16 46.208.241.95 40 41 TCP 12202->0 [S.....] seq 743780738 ack 0 win 8192

 Feb 3 17:36:29 IDS proto parser : udp null port (1 of 1) : 192.168.1.64 56.0.68.114 53 128 UDP 56143->0


ONeill
Grafter
Posts: 86
Registered: 09-01-2014

Re: Disconnections Low SNR at Evening

Checked this morning at 11:00 and SNR down is at 3.6, Check just now at 13:53 it's now at  SNR  9.1 db
What the hell is going on to cause it to fall so badly at the evening time which in turn causes me to have a disconnection issuse forcing me to restart my router just to get back online  Angry
Just waiting again for the exchane to sync me higher, back to 5238 because after I reboot it goes to about 4025.
Am I going to have to submit a fault report or phone up, as phoning up seems to do nothing and get nowhere with my problem  Cry Sad
Plusnet Staff
Plusnet Staff
Posts: 6,346
Thanks: 31
Fixes: 5
Registered: 26-11-2011

Re: Disconnections Low SNR at Evening

Hi ONeill,
Sorry to hear of the issues you're experiencing. It does sound as though there is something external to your premises which is causing some sort of interference on your line.
Just to rule out anything internal, have you tried connecting an alternative microfilter and connecting your router into your Test Socket?
Chris Pettitt
Cloud Environments Engineer
Superuser
Superuser
Posts: 11,077
Thanks: 2,425
Fixes: 22
Registered: 22-08-2007

Re: Disconnections Low SNR at Evening

Hi,
It would be helpful to know what is the TARGET SNRM for your line - this needs PN input.  I think a 'datum' point for your line needs to be established for your line against which its viability can be measured.
At 54 dB attenuation the prediction (on Kitz) for your line at a SNRM of 6dB is 4096kbps.  One of your stats reported 5238kbps (at marginal SNRM) which is rather sweating the line somewhat!
You can reasonably expect a fall of up to nearly 3dB at night time due to medium wave radio interference.  Therefore if your TARGET SNRM is only 3dB you might well see it got to zero or (if 'negative' - technically not possible) reported as a very large number by some routers.  In such situations the performance will be quite poor.
When you restart your router, it will establish the fastest synch that can be achieved at the target SNRM.  If you do this at night, the synch speed will be lower and during the day the reported SNRM will rise as the background noise decreases.  If you do this during the daytime, you will see a higher synch rate, however as the night time interference depresses the reported SNRM, more and more errors might be seen on the line.
How much of YOUR problem is made worse by local issues can be better informed through the use of a detailed monitoring tool such as routerstats.  This can be made to give you a near real time view of the variability of SNRM,  This should clearly indicate if there are any additional factors at play.  For illustration I have attached one of my SNRM plots.  This shows the early evening transition from light to dark.  Note the gradual downward 'background' move of the SNRM value, also how it is less stable due to MW interference.  The sharp spikes are external interference, in my case passing WCML electric trains.
To fix your problem might need some detailed analysis!  For a starter, I would suggest restarting your router around 22:00.  That will cause it to establish the best synch speed at the worse MW interference time.  Synch will be lower, but the line should be more stable and due to there being fewer errors effective data transfer should be faster.  SNRM will rise during the day - do not be concerned about this, that is normal.
A full set of router stats will then be useful - we can see how attenuation, synch and SNRM figures compare to expectations.  After that, routerstats plots (if you can set them up) will show if there is anything nasty in your environment.
In the meantime, you would be well advised to check out the problem self help topics at the top of this forum to eliminate the possibility of internal wiring inducing any issues.
ONeill
Grafter
Posts: 86
Registered: 09-01-2014

Re: Disconnections Low SNR at Evening

Hi Chris I've not used  alternative microfilter because I'm using this
http://www.run-it-direct.co.uk/btvdslfaceplate.html
with this
http://www.run-it-direct.co.uk/BTNTE2000EX10M.html
I did test yesterday with must of the house electrics off to see if any thing in my house was casuing it but no change, will post a graph later when it happens again.
Townman I had a sync rate of 4884 and snr of 6 about on O2, that was using my own router, using O2 router it would go to 5338 can't remember snr but never had a problem.
As I've said before an in another thread I can have a good sync during the day and good SNR but this problem is casuing the SNR to go mental and give me problems.
ONeill
Grafter
Posts: 86
Registered: 09-01-2014

Re: Disconnections Low SNR at Evening

Just done it again at 19:22, graph attached will post another when it comes back up.
Superuser
Superuser
Posts: 11,077
Thanks: 2,425
Fixes: 22
Registered: 22-08-2007

Re: Disconnections Low SNR at Evening

ONeill,
Sweet graph!!  Cheesy
This is NOT the normal night time MW interference I referred to be fore.  I think I can safely say that is likely to be a faulty switch mode power supply somewhere nearby.
That is a near step SNRM shift, which slowly settles down to a constant noise level.  What got switched on at 19:22?  Look for something getting switched off when it goes back to the higher level.  Note it might not be in your home - it could be a close neighbour (e.g. plasma TV).
This is truly a great result in pointing to the issue, all you now need to do is to correlate the step change with some event!  This might take some finding and could be obscure / unexpected.  I have experienced issues with a CCTV security system running 24x7.  However when dusk fell and the infra red emitters switched on, the extra load sent the switch mode power supply very marginal causing it to emit a lot of interference - which gradually increased as it got more demand from the PIA emitters.
Keep watching and lets see if you can get some correlation with events or time.
Cheers,
Kevin
ONeill
Grafter
Posts: 86
Registered: 09-01-2014

Re: Disconnections Low SNR at Evening

Just got back this morning bloody work  Sad
Just checked the router and it's back to  SNR 9.8 db  Cheesy, I've had rein issues before so I have been looking and can't find any thing that came on at about the time, but will keep looking.
Oh I'm not using the MK2 version of that faceplate I'm using the MK1, can't find any mk2 cheap enough yet  Wink
Update
I've found one problem any way it seems that the laptop charger is causing it to drop by 0.5 db when in the same room and by 1.0 db when down stairs, but can't find any thing else that would cause it to drop by 6.0 db
Update
Just done it again at about 13:00, notice the graph again, first section is a faulty laptop charger, new one ordered, every thing switched off and no change, can deafinitely noises on the radio at 600KHz.
Superuser
Superuser
Posts: 11,077
Thanks: 2,425
Fixes: 22
Registered: 22-08-2007

Re: Disconnections Low SNR at Evening

Hi ONeill,
Well that is a step in the right direction.  One source of noise found, now to locate the others.   Grin
Quote from: ONeill
... can definitely [hear] noises on the radio at 600KHz.

Have you gone strolling with your radio to see where it gets louder?  Is there noise on the line (17070 option2) - did I already ask that?
Did anything get switched on at 13:00?  How close is your neighbour?  Were they at home at 13:00 - can you ask them if they switched something on at that time - plasma TV?  If you can locate the source of REIN outside of your property, then I believe that the issue can be reported to BTOR who should take up the issue with the owner of the interfering equipment.
@DCT - would a RF3 filter be worth considering?
Plusnet Staff
Plusnet Staff
Posts: 6,346
Thanks: 31
Fixes: 5
Registered: 26-11-2011

Re: Disconnections Low SNR at Evening

It would be worth considering but it would only be fitted by BT Openreach if they could prove that this would help eliminate the issue.
Chris Pettitt
Cloud Environments Engineer
Superuser
Superuser
Posts: 11,077
Thanks: 2,425
Fixes: 22
Registered: 22-08-2007

Re: Disconnections Low SNR at Evening

Chris,
IIRC PN requested that a RF3 filter be fitted to see if it would help eliminate the problem.  To prove the benefit before fitting it, would I suggest a requirement to have located and assessed the source of the problem.  Aside for the WCML, my source was never located, rather repeated D-Side swaps finally found something very much better.
ONiell's issue though does look very marked - more SHINE than REIN.  Roll eyes
Kevin
Plusnet Staff
Plusnet Staff
Posts: 6,346
Thanks: 31
Fixes: 5
Registered: 26-11-2011

Re: Disconnections Low SNR at Evening

That's what I mean. If we sent out an Openreach Engineer and the engineer felt that fitting the RF3 Filter would be of benefit, this would be done on the day.
If the engineer locates a source of REIN externally, it's unlikely that an RF3 Filter would be fitted. We're more than happy to have a REIN issue investigated, as long as internal equipment/sources have been ruled out.
Chris Pettitt
Cloud Environments Engineer
ONeill
Grafter
Posts: 86
Registered: 09-01-2014

Re: Disconnections Low SNR at Evening

New graph added and SNR back to 9.6, this time it only lasted for 2 hours not the 5+ hours, next time it happens I'll do a line test and nothing in the house got switched on at that time, even turned every thing off apart from the PC and still no change, did the same on a laptop and turn PC off but still no change, got a feeling that it might be coming from next door as he is off today and they normaly get in from work about 6, but saying that all 3 of my neighbours are in today  Sad
Opps my bad Townman  Wink
Update
Just had the exchange resync me and now back to what it should do but the only thing is, it's going to happen again  Cry

Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 866 / 5,110

Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/GB]: 554.74 / 15.23

Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.6 / 0.0

Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 32.8 / 53.5

SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 6.2 / 3.2
ONeill
Grafter
Posts: 86
Registered: 09-01-2014

Re: Disconnections Low SNR at Evening

I knew it was to good to last, had a good sync and speed for a change and good SNR that did not move that much and come some time between 20:00 and 21:00 it done it again, checked the radio and really bad interference, the other half said she could hear what sounded like voices coming from it.
Done a quiet line test and all is clear.  Undecided