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Data Type Noise

RTNI
Rising Star
Posts: 76
Thanks: 3
Fixes: 1
Registered: 28-04-2014

Data Type Noise

Hello,
I am looking for some advice please on what possible explanations could be causing what I can only describe as a data type noise on my phone connection.
I have had a BT line engineer out twice and on both occasions they have discovered no fault.  I have been fitted with a new master socket, complete with i-plate that has the data connection at the top.  PN are adiment that there is no issue with my line (on account of a phone call today) but I am still experiencing this interference that is causing an instability in my BB connection.
The basic problem is this: with the phone (cordless) plugged into the test port (with or without a microfilter) and the router turned off and physically disconnected I can hear on the quiet line test a data-sync type noise that I can only explain as a type of audible noise that the modem in the exchange uses to communicate with the router in my house.  With the routher connected this noise appears to come when the BB light on my Thomson router flashes quickly.  I have the same fault when connecting in an old netgear DG834 router.  In addition, with a corded phone I hear this data-sync noise when the router is connected to the data port but can't really hear anything except some very quiet clicks in the background on the quiet line test with the router disconnected.
The BT line engineer on the second visit said something about me having reached 35 errors (critical errors?) in a 60 seconds, and a level of approximately 25 or under in 5 minutes is considered acceptable.
Can anyone offer some suggestions as to what may be happening here and what is at fault?  A Broadband engineer is booked for the end of the week.
My router stats are below:
DSL Connection
Link Information

Uptime: 0 days, 0:24:36
DSL Type: ITU-T G.992.5
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1.103 / 6.286
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/MB]: 1,40 / 3,80
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12,8 / 0,0
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 20,9 / 41,5
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 5,7 / 13,1
System Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / ----
Chipset Vendor ID (Local/Remote): BDCM / IFTN
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): -
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 87 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 19 / 35.266
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 2 / 87
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 1 / 46
20 REPLIES
Superuser
Superuser
Posts: 12,608
Thanks: 3,882
Fixes: 25
Registered: 22-08-2007

Re: Data Type Noise

Hi RTNI,
Welcome to the forums.  You need help from PlusNet's Digital Care Team - given that they work Mon-Fri office hours, you might not get a response from them today.
Something is a bit amiss here.  The synch speed is quite a bit lower than you should be getting on a 41dB attenuated line.  Also the 13dB SNRM is quite high - it is not possible for me to know if this is due to the target being high (12dB or 15dB) or the SNRM has shot up from an initial 6dB at synch during the 24 minutes elapsed connection time.
Whatever I suggest something is not wright here.

@DCT, given there have been two no fault found BTOR visits, is there merit in running a FULL copper test - line balance et al...?
RTNI
Rising Star
Posts: 76
Thanks: 3
Fixes: 1
Registered: 28-04-2014

Re: Data Type Noise

Townman,
Thanks for the quick reply.  The SNR was 6dB for both up and downstream but due to the large number of disconnections recently, the SNR on the downstream has increased from 6 to 9 then to 12 as it is now.  The line used to sync at approximately 8Mbps with a throughput of approx 6.5 Mbps on speed test websites.  I don't think I'm too concerned about this at present, it should go back to 6dB in the future if and when the fault is addressed.
I have been made aware of cable damage down the road from us where the exchange is located.  Approximately 1 month ago a section was repaired although I have been told this is a temporary repair before they put the entire line underground.
A copy and paste from the ticketing system today.  I am concerned about the "Mean time between errors (Downstream)" at 6 seconds.
Quote
DSL:
Upstream DSL Link Information Downstream DSL Link Information
Loop Loss: 20.6 42.0
SNR Margin: 5.0 12.3
Errored Seconds: 0 10
HEC Errors: 0
Cell Count: 23002 61533
Speed: 1099 6324

Maximum Stable Rate (KBPS): 1728 Fault Threshold Rate (KBPS): 1382
Mean Time Between Retrains (Seconds): 86400 Mean Time Between Errors Upstream (Seconds): 1025
Indicative Line Quality: A Mean Time Between Errors Downstream (Seconds): 10


Why though do the errored seconds (10 in the above) not agree with my router errored seconds in the log files?
Latest router BB connection information:
Quote
Link Information

Uptime: 0 days, 1:35:59
DSL Type: ITU-T G.992.5
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1.103 / 6.286
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/MB]: 56,60 / 403,66
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12,8 / 0,0
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 20,9 / 41,5
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 5,9 / 13,2
System Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / ----
Chipset Vendor ID (Local/Remote): BDCM / IFTN
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): -
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 204 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 202 / 138.992
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 35 / 214
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 21 / 122

Thanks for your help!
Robin.
jim:quote
Superuser
Superuser
Posts: 12,608
Thanks: 3,882
Fixes: 25
Registered: 22-08-2007

Re: Data Type Noise

Robin,
A good set of questions... not sure I can give an authoritative answer on them all, but I will express an opinion which I hope is not too far off the mark.
Quote from: RTNI
The SNR was 6dB for both up and downstream but due to the large number of disconnections recently, the SNR on the downstream has increased from 6 to 9 then to 12 as it is now ... I don't think I'm too concerned about this at present, it should go back to 6dB in the future if and when the fault is addressed.

I take it you mean that the TARGET SNRM has changed as described above.  If I am correct, the TARGET SNRM will not go back down again without manual intervention.  Indeed there is little point in attempting this until the fault is located.
Quote from: RTNI
I have been made aware of cable damage down the road from us where the exchange is located.  Approximately 1 month ago a section was repaired although I have been told this is a temporary repair before they put the entire line underground.

This is not well aligned to the two BTOR engineer visits who stated that they could find no faults.  Would you know if these were POTS (phone) or Broadband engineers?  Is there any noise on the line - dial 17070 option 2 from (ideally) a wired phone connected to the master socket.
Quote from: RTNI
A copy and paste from the ticketing system today.  I am concerned about the "Mean time between errors (Downstream)" at 6 seconds.
Why though do the errored seconds (10 in the above) not agree with my router errored seconds in the log files?

Yes the MTBF is not good.
Error counts - two things here
- first the router reports LOCAL errored seconds (204) and I am not sure that the router can report errors seen by the other end and therefore reports zero... if that makes sense
- second I am not convinced that all error counters are reset to zero on a resynch, so those error counts might not be just for the current session
This issue needs DCT to take an "expert" look at matters.  Given the statement about damaged cables, I'd be looking at the pair balance...
HTH some?
Kevin
RTNI
Rising Star
Posts: 76
Thanks: 3
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Registered: 28-04-2014

Re: Data Type Noise

Kevin,
Quote
This is not well aligned to the two BTOR engineer visits who stated that they could find no faults.  Would you know if these were POTS (phone) or Broadband engineers?  Is there any noise on the line - dial 17070 option 2 from (ideally) a wired phone connected to the master socket.

These were POTS engineers on both occasions.  The second engineer plugged in his blue machine into the test port and line test from his mobile.  All came back fine as a pass but he had a very quick look at the broadband and made the comment about the level of critical errors.
I will test again for the noise.  Should this be in the test port with or without the router connected (with microfilter) and powered on or off?
Robin.
Superuser
Superuser
Posts: 12,608
Thanks: 3,882
Fixes: 25
Registered: 22-08-2007

Re: Data Type Noise

Hi Robin,
A wired phone in the test socket (with filter) eliminates any possible pick up from your house extension wiring.  If there is no extension wiring, then it matters not, just plug into the mater socket.
Given that there were POTS engineers, I think you now need a proper BB engineer visit...  have you tried raising a fault report here - http://faults.plus.net - at worse it will report no fault identified and then the DCT guys will need to take a closer look, at best it might see something which can be fixed.
Kevin
RTNI
Rising Star
Posts: 76
Thanks: 3
Fixes: 1
Registered: 28-04-2014

Re: Data Type Noise

Kevin,
Yes fault has been raised with PN (thats where the info above from PN came from on the ticketing system).  BB engineer scheduled to attend on Friday PM.
I'll check the line again with wired phone and microfilter.  I'll check for noise with router on and off and report back shortly.
Thanks for all your help and suggestions thus far!
Robin.
RTNI
Rising Star
Posts: 76
Thanks: 3
Fixes: 1
Registered: 28-04-2014

Re: Data Type Noise

Ok,
So I disconnected the data line from the top of the BT iplate, removed the iplate and plugged a microfilter into the test port on the master socket.  With a corded phone and the router plugged into the mircoflter the following youtube video is what I got:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VARiwRE_Rgs
This was repeated with a second microfilter and the results were the same.  I also swappNetgear DG834G router and the results were the same.
RTNI
Rising Star
Posts: 76
Thanks: 3
Fixes: 1
Registered: 28-04-2014

Re: Data Type Noise

So can anyone confirm my belief that I should not be able to hear these noises in the backgound?  I should say that these noises are when the PN router is trying to sync with the exchange and at the end of the video it does indeed.
Robin.
Superuser
Superuser
Posts: 12,608
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Fixes: 25
Registered: 22-08-2007

Re: Data Type Noise

Robin,
I could not hear anything above the sound of my laptop fan... cannot find my headphones just now... suspect that you do not have anything there to worry about.
I think that all you can do now is to keep monitoring and wait for the engineer to arrive on Friday.
If you want to look closer, find, download and install routerstats - dammed good piece of software and it is well tuned to your router.

Kevin
Community Veteran
Posts: 5,472
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Registered: 11-08-2007

Re: Data Type Noise

Link for "RouterStats" - http://www.vwlowen.co.uk/internet/files.htm  Roll eyes
Superuser
Superuser
Posts: 12,608
Thanks: 3,882
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Registered: 22-08-2007

Re: Data Type Noise

Right kind of you Purleigh - this was not one of my stock ULRs - it is now.
Community Veteran
Posts: 5,472
Thanks: 292
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Registered: 11-08-2007

Re: Data Type Noise

It is one of those URLs that you search for on the internet, look at it and think "is this right ?"  Crazy
so I thought I might as well post the correct link to avoid any confusion.  Wink
RTNI
Rising Star
Posts: 76
Thanks: 3
Fixes: 1
Registered: 28-04-2014

Re: Data Type Noise

Still no joy on this unfortunately.  Had B'band engineer out who could not conduct a PQT due to "unknown earth" and would not climb the pole outside the house as was leaning too much for him.  Shocked
He arranged for a platform and a jointer to attend the next day.  To cut a long story short they changed the pair coming into the house and jointer managed to get a good PQT by using a screwdriver in the garden as the earth.  The fault still remains though as per the youtube video above.  When the router is connected via a microfilter at the test port on the NTE, when it is syncing I can hear busts of data which changes to a hissing noise when router is connected to exchange (as per video).
How do I get this fault progressed forward and escalated?  This is now 6 BT engineers that have attended and still my problem is not fixed!
Superuser
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Posts: 12,608
Thanks: 3,882
Fixes: 25
Registered: 22-08-2007

Re: Data Type Noise

Quote from: RTNI
... jointer managed to get a good PQT by using a screwdriver in the garden as the earth.

Normally they'd take an earth from an adjacent power socket - could this indicate the you do not gave a good earth on your ring main?