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Countless Disconnections Since Early Morning

netspeed
Grafter
Posts: 61
Registered: ‎24-12-2009

Re: Countless Disconnections Since Early Morning

Thanks for explanation.
I guess that wouldn't explain why the Thomson was disconnecting every couple of minutes for the previous hour and the Netgear has stayed solid though (touchwood, til now) ... unless exchange adjusted the SNR Margin the exact moment I swapped to the Netgear. Hopefully, someone from plusnet will be able to tell. SNR Margin at site is still reported as 6db.
Townman
Superuser
Superuser
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Registered: ‎22-08-2007

Re: Countless Disconnections Since Early Morning

Quote from: netspeed
Now I get the 'not our fault, gov' message from Plusnet troubleshooter, contact phone provider.  Roll_eyes

The industry "protocol" is that noise on line is a voice service issue to be dealt with the voice service provider, even if it is intermittent and is impacting broadband.  Note do not tell the voice provider you "really" have a broadband problem as they will duck the issue.  Having separate suppliers for BB & voice is NEVER a good idea when you have a fault like this.  As AndyH notes, BT do have an on-line fault checker.  If at first ti does not show a fault, try again when there is noise there... if you can get on line  Cheesy
Quote from: netspeed
Phone line doesn't sound noisy today. If disconnections continue, can someone from Plusnet suggest if raising SNR Margin again would be worth trying.

Raising the target SNRM could mask the problem so that you perceive an improvement, however that would mean sacrificing synch speed.  You need to get the land line issue fixed, as it is only likely to get worse, possibly to the point where you have no phone and no BB.
Quote from: netspeed
Are there no Plusnet staff here on Mondays?

Not on a Monday which is also a Bank Holiday.
Quote from: Oldjim
It has probably fixed masked it but doesn't explain what caused the problem in the first place

My alteration in Jim's quote - this is not a fix rather a "coping" tactic.  Given the attenuation figures reported in the log details, this line should be delivering circa 17Mbps.
Something is very much not right, please raise a line fault issue with BT... or may be move your phone over to PN?  Huh Undecided
Quote from: netspeed
SNR Margin at site is still reported as 6db.

What site, where?  SNRM is not reported anywhere... are you getting confused with current speed?

Superusers are not staff, but they do have a direct line of communication into the business in order to raise issues, concerns and feedback from the community.

netspeed
Grafter
Posts: 61
Registered: ‎24-12-2009

Re: Countless Disconnections Since Early Morning

Quote from: Townman
The industry "protocol" is that noise on line is a voice service issue to be dealt with the voice service provider, even if it is intermittent and is impacting broadband.  Note do not tell the voice provider you "really" have a broadband problem as they will duck the issue.  Having separate suppliers for BB & voice is NEVER a good idea when you have a fault like this.  As AndyH notes, BT do have an on-line fault checker.  If at first ti does not show a fault, try again when there is noise there... if you can get on line  Cheesy

It never seems to show a fault. And if you ring them, they ALWAYS say to me our tests show your line is fine. I kid you not, someone there told me that when I reported we had no dial tone at all ... no phone, no net. They said was fine, but after got angry agreed to send an engineer. This was about three months ago. Engineer tells me he had a string of complaints from my street. Some engineer had connected phone lines up incorrectly, so loads of houses were getting each others' calls. Our phone line he hadn't even bother to reconnect. So naturally, it was dead. But BT customer service were giving it the 'we can't detect any problem' when it wasn't even connected at the box.  

Quote from: Townman
Raising the target SNRM could mask the problem so that you perceive an improvement, however that would mean sacrificing synch speed.  You need to get the land line issue fixed, as it is only likely to get worse, possibly to the point where you have no phone and no BB.

I've had BT engineers out a couple of times in last year. The first time engineer said there was a nick in the line on street from some workman. He fixed it. Net wasn't too bad after. Began to deteriorate again. Prior to me calling them out again three months ago when had no net at all cos of them not reconnecting my line, there had been some problems reported to plusnet. Maybe, BT sent someone to the box to fix that and screwed all up. I've little belief they are gonna replace copper wire externally from my house to the box.
Engineer who came three months ago was a nice guy. He fixed our disconnection at their cabinet, also replaced the little box where line first comes in the house. He asked me if we sometimes get noise on the phone line and nodded understandably when I said just a bit. Then left.
I got occasional disconnections after that, but not too bad. I decided to remove the possibility of any internal wiring problems myself. I got new cables to connect to router and I connected an ADSL faceplate so I could isolate my broadband from my phones at the master socket.
It made a HUGE difference to the broadband speed I was getting. My line was estimated to be capable of 6mb before. It jumped from just about 6mb to 12mb within the hour, and the big increase in speed also came with pretty good stability. Line was often up a few days without a disconnection.
That was all until this weekend. Plusnet reported some network probs, so the first disconnects didn't bother me. Since then though they went crazy.
BTW, still have had no disconnections since connecting the old netgear which is reporting an SNR Margin of 13db and drop in speed from 12mb to 6.5mb now.
Quote from: Townman
Not on a Monday which is also a Bank Holiday.

Oops, mea culpa.

Quote from: Townman
My alteration in Jim's quote - this is not a fix rather a "coping" tactic.  Given the attenuation figures reported in the log details, this line should be delivering circa 17Mbps.

I'm not so great on  the technical stuff. I hope someone from Plusnet sees your post and can do me a favour of explaining to BT that something needs fixing then.
Quote from: Townman
What site, where?  SNRM is not reported anywhere... are you getting confused with current speed?

Sorry meant estimated speed. Here: https://portal.plus.net/my.html?action=data_transfer_speed
For me it reports this:
Telephone number:
01209xxxxxx
Phone exchange:
REDRUTH
Estimated line speed:
6Mb (This may vary between 5Mb and 7Mb) - Checked on 2014-05-29 02:12:49
Current line speed:
12.3 Mb
netspeed
Grafter
Posts: 61
Registered: ‎24-12-2009

Re: Countless Disconnections Since Early Morning

mistaken repost
Townman
Superuser
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Re: Countless Disconnections Since Early Morning

Hi Netspeed,
Just a couple of observations.
If lines are cross connected, so that your number goes somewhere else and (may be) you have no dial tone, the automated line tests will pass ok, as they "poke down the line" to wherever the lines go.  A couple of months back some poor soul had a cross connected line, his calls were going somewhere else, but the line tested out ok so no one could raise a "fault" under BTOR rules - crazy!  If you have dial tone, dialling 17070 is always a useful check to ensure you have the right line.  In some parts of the country BTOR have some really bad cowboys sub contracting for them.
Noisy lines can be a real problem to fix.  The issues come and go and can be susceptible to wet weather, which is why repeated visits are usually required.  One petroleum is broadband requires a higher standard of line than voice.  One is always better off with issues like this is both voice and bb come from the same supplier - no ducking!
Different routers can report figures differently, but this is a marked change and the synch speed is seriously down.  You will just have to wait and see if PN will run with what is clearly a phone line problem.

Superusers are not staff, but they do have a direct line of communication into the business in order to raise issues, concerns and feedback from the community.

Anotherone
Champion
Posts: 19,107
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Registered: ‎31-08-2007

Re: Countless Disconnections Since Early Morning

You really need to get onto BT Retail yourself, at a time when you can hear crackling noises on the line. As Townman has already said, don't mention broadband or you'll get the run around. Ask the call taker if they can hear the crackling noise. Whatever answer they give you, your response should be - well it gets pretty loud this end intermittently and there have been instances where I can't hear the person on the other end or they hear me. It's intermittent crackling, make sure you write that down for Openreach. If they come back with the "well it tests ok" line implying they aren't going to do anything, your response should be - I don't care what your tests show, there's intermittent crackling noise which affects my calls, I pay you enough line rental, I want it fixed."
However, double check (or more) that you can hear the noise when connected direct  to the test socket with a corded phone (no filters) and make sure that it's not the phone - try another to check before you get this far.
At the end of the day if your phone line is rubbish, your broadband will be rubbish.
Oldjim
Resting Legend
Posts: 38,460
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Registered: ‎15-06-2007

Re: Countless Disconnections Since Early Morning

just make sure that the noise isn't only there when the router is connected
netspeed
Grafter
Posts: 61
Registered: ‎24-12-2009

Re: Countless Disconnections Since Early Morning

Thanks, guys, for advice. But I'm hoping someone from Plusnet will advise and lend a helping hand.
I've got no noise on phone line now. I've decided to test the other router again now, after the Netgear stayed up for 15 hours and something weird is going on. Seems my SNR Margin was probably not raised to 13db as reported by the netgear. Cos I just did speedtests on the two routers five minutes in between and the Thomson is still synched at a much speedier almost 12mB/s compared to the Netgear's 6.6 mB/sec:
Netgear DG834
Today 12:17 6691 kbps (836kB/s) 699 kbps (87.4kB/s)
Thomson TG585 v8 Router
Today 12:24 11677 kbps (1.46MB/s) 752 kbps (94kB/s) Share
5mB difference between the two. No idea what's going on there. Maybe the netgear has a max speed? Maybe, someone from Plusnet can confirm that my SNR Margin is still actually 6dB. The slower running Netgear reports it as 13 dB still.
The netgear stayed up for 15 hours. Let's see how long the Thomson lasts.
Townman
Superuser
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Registered: ‎22-08-2007

Re: Countless Disconnections Since Early Morning

Even at 11Mbps something is still not right.
Best you can ask of PN is to repeat the line test - if this reports copper fault again, it's back to BT for you.
Have you tried running your own line test here - http://bt.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/9812/c/345,353 ?

Superusers are not staff, but they do have a direct line of communication into the business in order to raise issues, concerns and feedback from the community.

netspeed
Grafter
Posts: 61
Registered: ‎24-12-2009

Re: Countless Disconnections Since Early Morning

I ran the test and it says what they always do:
"Results of line test
We cannot detect a problem with this line.
It may be caused by a faulty phone or equipment."
Well, 11mb might not sound great, but it's 5mB more than I was used to getting on my line. Thomson been running happily at that speed for a couple months. Now seems disconnecting all time. Netgear running at 6.5 mB/sec and a reported 13db SNR margin stays up. I'm lost about how the two routers are running at such different speeds.
My SNR margin is still set at 6dB as fas as I know, but the netgear reports 13dB.
Townman
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Re: Countless Disconnections Since Early Morning

It is indeed strange!  Could be down to a modem fault or something to do with the hand shaking on synch up.
One would need to see the full router stats and not just the edited highlights.  It is just possible that the NetGear is using ADSL (1) modulation, but I do not believe that is selectable by the router on an ADSL 2 line.
What version of firmware is in the TG router?  Can you check the router log for the last disconnection and see if says anything about a warm restart please.

Superusers are not staff, but they do have a direct line of communication into the business in order to raise issues, concerns and feedback from the community.

netspeed
Grafter
Posts: 61
Registered: ‎24-12-2009

Re: Countless Disconnections Since Early Morning

Here's the firmware version for the Thomson:
THOMSON ROUTER
Product Name:  TG585 v8
Software Release:  8.2.7.8

Here's the log of the last disconnection (when I ran the BT line test you suggested). Can't see anything about a warm reset:
Aug 26 13:06:57 PPP CHAP Receive challenge (rhost = PTN-AG01)


  Aug 26 13:06:56 PPP CHAP Receive challenge (rhost = bras-red3.bs)


  Aug 26 13:06:50 xDSL linestate up (ITU-T G.992.5; downstream: 14648 kbit/s, upstream: 888 kbit/s; output Power Down: 20.0 dBm, Up: 12.0 dBm; line Attenuation Down: 26.0 dB, Up: 14.5 dB; snr Margin Down: 6.0 dB, Up: 13.0 dB)


  Aug 26 13:06:40 PPP link down (Internet) [146.200.150.14] 


  Aug 26 13:06:24 xDSL linestate down


  Aug 26 13:06:01 FIREWALL event (1 of 1): created rules


  Aug 26 13:06:00 GRP Default destination is not routed anymore via gateway 146.200.150.14


  Aug 26 13:06:00 xDSL linestate down


  Aug 26 13:05:32 UPnP action 'AddPortMapping' from ip=192.168.1.65 (Success)


  Aug 26 13:05:22 UPnP action 'AddPortMapping' from ip=192.168.1.65 (Success)


  Aug 26 13:05:14 UPnP action 'DeletePortMapping' from ip=192.168.1.65 (Success)


  Aug 26 13:05:10 UPnP action 'DeletePortMapping' from ip=192.168.1.65 (Success)


  Aug 26 13:04:36 FIREWALL icmp check (1 of 1): Protocol: ICMP Src ip: 90.212.111.223 Dst ip: 146.200.150.14 Type: Destination Unreachable Code: Host Unreacheable

Don't know if it helps, but the Thomson had only been running at same speed as the Netgear for several years. It was only when I installed an ADSL plate at master socket and could remove all filters that speed doubled up to as high as 12mb/s on the Thomson. The stability of my line also much improved with that. It's only this last weekend the disconnections went crazy on the Thomson; the netgear running at lower speed stayed up.
I've reconnected the Thomson now to see how it runs today. Been up for 90 minutes. But not a guarantee is better. Was up for 6 hours yesterday, before disconnections began.
Townman
Superuser
Superuser
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Re: Countless Disconnections Since Early Morning

For that router, that is the most recent firmware I can find reference within PlusNET.
On Zen they reference V8.2.7.B but that could be a typo. 
The light does not show anything "interesting".

This issue needs CRT assistance.

Superusers are not staff, but they do have a direct line of communication into the business in order to raise issues, concerns and feedback from the community.

netspeed
Grafter
Posts: 61
Registered: ‎24-12-2009

Re: Countless Disconnections Since Early Morning

Thanks for all your suggestions, Townman.
Well, my test on the Thomson is complete. It stayed up for two hours at 11.5 mb/s then just disconnected. A first then happened: all lights came back green, including the broadband one but no net returned. After waiting five minutes, I rebooted the router. All five lights came back green, still no net. The log seems to suggest connection was reestablished, but no net.
I've switched to the Netgear and net is instantly there at the lower speed. Here's the just disconnected log from the Thomson:
  Aug 26 15:14:54 LOGIN User tried to login on [HTTP] (from 192.168.1.65)


  Aug 26 15:13:37 FIREWALL event (1 of 1): deleted rules


  Aug 26 15:13:33 PPP link up (Internet) [172.16.37.39] 


  Aug 26 15:13:33 GRP Default destination is routed via gateway
172.16.37.39


  Aug 26 15:13:33 PPP CHAP Chap receive success : authentication ok


  Aug 26 15:13:32 PPP CHAP Receive challenge (rhost = bras-red3.bs)


  Aug 26 15:13:27 xDSL linestate up (ITU-T G.992.5; downstream: 13742
kbit/s, upstream: 888 kbit/s; output Power Down: 20.0 dBm, Up: 12.5 dBm;
line Attenuation Down: 26.5 dB, Up: 14.5 dB; snr Margin Down: 6.0 dB, Up:
6.5 dB)


  Aug 26 15:13:01 xDSL linestate down


  Aug 26 15:12:55 PPP link down (Internet) [91.125.112.78] 


  Aug 26 15:12:45 xDSL linestate down


  Aug 26 15:12:19 xDSL linestate down


  Aug 26 15:12:05 FIREWALL event (1 of 1): created rules


  Aug 26 15:12:04 GRP Default destination is not routed anymore via gateway
91.125.112.78


  Aug 26 15:12:04 xDSL linestate down

Maybe, the Netgear only supports ADSL1 as you say. Could it be the Thomson router that's developed a fault and not the line?
netspeed
Grafter
Posts: 61
Registered: ‎24-12-2009

Re: Countless Disconnections Since Early Morning

The netgear just got a disconnect too. Bang goes the faulty Thomson router theory.  Undecided