Changes to Home Phone Pricing and T&C for phones and broadband

[#1]

Quote from: jelv

And there's more: The Acceptable Use Policy includes: Quote 6.2.1 Broadband Surf products prohibit the use of file sharing (peer-2-peer) applications or access to any USENET service other than the text feed offered by us. We will actively block such applications and any new applications or services of similar purpose. That functionality has been removed I believe so the AUP needs revision.

The functionality still exists, although it's not as accurate as it once was.
The AUP does need revision, but we didn't get to it in these updates.

Quote from: jelv

Quote 6.2.2 In order to maximise service availability for all Customers on our more popular Services, Plusnet operates 'idle time-outs' on its ADSL Home Surf service. This works by automatically disconnecting sessions which have been inactive for more than thirty minutes. You will be able to reconnect straight away if you wish. and under BB+ Quote 6.3.4 In order to maximise service availability for all Customers on our more popular Services, Plusnet operates 'idle time-outs'. This works by automatically disconnecting sessions which have been inactive for more than thirty minutes. You will be able to reconnect straight away if you wish. Does that still happen?

Yes.

Quote from: jelv

Quote 7.2.6 For subscription Services, we provide you with access to a CGI server in addition to your web space. You may run your own custom CGI scripts on this dedicated CGI server, however the set up, administration and functionality of your scripts remain entirely your responsibility and we cannot be held liable for, nor can be expected to provide support for these scripts. Removal of CCGI from the new accounts for new users means Plusnet are breaking their AUP and until they amend that to say something like "where it's included in the service" Plusnet must provide CCGI to any user paying a subscription.

We can provide CCGI access where needed, but it is not provided as standard on the new accounts.

[#2]

Quote from: Anotherone

With respect to the 30 day notice, I've had further thought, providing your billing date is 30 days or more after your e-mail and there are no retrospective increases, then I suppose it's OK. My e-mail does say ",,,from your January bill onwards..."

We won't be running billing for the first couple of days of January, so everyone will have had 30 days notice between receiving the email and being billed.

[#3]

I don't see the relevance of that unless you are saying that increased call charges will only be applied to calls made after the first bill in January.
We require 30 days notice between the announcement and the increased call charges being applied no matter how long after that the bill is sent.

[#4]

What I really object to is not the fact that there are price increases but the language used to tell us about them. "We're updating our charge for line rental..."  "Some other call prices are changing too.."
Does Plusnet think its customers (even ones that don't read the forums) are so stupid that they won't realise that these words mean price increases? I'm not sure. Maybe it's just become the norm that companies phrase their messages in a way that makes it seem like they're trying to deceive their customers. Marketing people may not even realise they're doing it, it's so automatic.
Perhaps it's just that they (companies, including Plusnet) want to make it as difficult as possible for customers to work out what's really happening. Note that there are no 'old v. new' price comparisons, or T&C comparisons, to be found on the pages pointed to in the message. It's great that people like jelv have taken the time to compare the T&C's, but why should it be necessary? If changes are being made, the obvious thing anyone wants to know is what has been changed. Why can't this be stated clearly?
This behaviour is so ingrained in marketing people that they even do it when the changes benefit customers. When Plusnet's restrictive contract terms were eased a month or so ago it wasn't clear how good the changes were until people in the forum worked out the implications of the message that was sent out.
While I can sympathise with the people suffering from this particular 'professional deformation', I'm still angry that we're not being clearly informed. However, as this behaviour is unlikely to change we'll just have to assume the worst each time we see a message starting 'Important information..'
Graham

[#5]

All - I have read all your feedback and points and take all of them on board. I will also make sure the marketing team review in detail.
On the main point of the pricing changes, clearly when changing all our prices because of the VAT change it is an opportunity to make other changes as part of the same internal project. Our pricing strategy on home phone is to keep our line rental and anytime calling plan prices as competitive as we can.
Our pricing relative to our competitors remains very good. Line rental is competitive at £11.25 (lower than most competitors post the VAT increase). No-one else adds in so many inclusive calls: UK landlines, international, 0845/0870, free calls to other Plusnet customers and Plusnet customer service, plus discounted calls to mobiles on anytime.
The only significant price rise above the VAT increase is the daytime ppm rate going from 4.5 to 5.25ppm, but we are not increasing the anytime calling plan rate which is staying at £5. For some time its been much better value to buy the anytime calling plan if you use your landline during the day -  lots of people do buy it as they like the certainty of a fixed calling plan fee rather than ppm rates. But I appreciate that if you use your landline infrequently in the day this is a small price rise.
I take the points on language, the notice period and being clearer on changes to older anytime calling plans and will feed back to the project team.
Mand - thank you for fielding the questions.
Anthony

[#6]

Anthony. I fully understand that as you are having to adjust your billing systems to make VAT changes that making other charging changes at the same time makes sense to you. Personally given the history of problems with the PN phone billing system I'm surprised you're going to do more than one change at once but there you go.
But look at it from a customers point of view.
We know VAT goes back up on Jan 1st, so we expect bills to go back up, and actually we should be able to work it out if we dug out our calculators. But when PN then go and say that thay are making other changes in rates and allowances etc it is just about impossible for us to work out if our PN services are value for money any more. They probably are but the immediate reaction from people is going to be that PN are sneaking in prices increases by the back door and hoping that the poor old customer wont notice.

[#7]

This is, I'm afraid, misinformation again. Evening and weekend calls to international numbers have all been increased to the day time rate which in a lot of cases is one hell of a price hike. Due to time differences a lot of people would make international calls at the weekend or evenings.

Quote from: Anthony

The only significant price rise above the VAT increase is the daytime ppm rate going from 4.5 to 5.25ppm, but we are not increasing the anytime calling plan rate which is staying at £5. For some time its been much better value to buy the anytime calling plan if you use your landline during the day -  lots of people do buy it as they like the certainty of a fixed calling plan fee rather than ppm rates. But I appreciate that if you use your landline infrequently in the day this is a small price rise. I take the points on language, the notice period and being clearer on changes to older anytime calling plans and will feed back to the project team. Mand - thank you for fielding the questions. Anthony

[#8]

As a long term and generally very happy Broadband Only user, its not often I can be bothered reading the full T&Cs....however this email (just received) provoked me to do so.
Item 4 in the "Providing the service (access/permits)" section caught my eye.

Quote

4. You agree to follow any reasonable instructions that we may give you, and to allow us access to your premises if we need it.

Now I don't know if it's in the old T&Cs but....
Looking at the start of the line, could someone from Plus Net explain what in what context "reasonable instructions" defined?  
Are we talking about technical items - OS  (I'd be interested to know what your support drones could teach me about Linux ) , PC or Modem/Router configuration issues; or other things like compromised machine/virus issues, usage issues or behavioural ones?
I can see no reason for the access requirement at the end of item 4 in the "Providing the service (access/permits)" section - where I have added emphasis.
Could someone from Plus Net  explain the necessity of this being applied to what is effectively a "wires only" service?
The fact that there is no "reasonable" qualifier or limitation such as "in order to service our equipment." just makes one suspicious; but then again it may just be me.
Be really happy if some one could clear those points up.  
Thanks,
Dogeron
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Linux Powered!

[#9]

I would like to add my voice in support of all of the criticisms voiced in this thread. The marketing wording is appalling. What is wrong with simple honesty? The glass is half full - don't try to bamboozle me by telling me about the flavour and the colouring - its not relevant.

Quote

This is likely to be a day (2 at most) of subscription fees. I've found details in the old T&Cs which are now in the AUP only - whether they were before I don't know as there are no archived versions of the AUP (unlike the T&Cs). We haven't changed the AUP. That term could be taken to mean that, but in all honesty your PSTN provider is likely to have a rule governing extensions anyway. This is more to mitigate against SFI charges etc. That's not a hard and fast rule, it's just to set expectation that notice is required for broadband moves. It means Plusnet or BT Retail. Currently this is not enforced.

I've chopped the above quotes about mercilessly to reduce the space taken so forgive me for that.
Yes two days of payment for a service that is not in place is detrimental, its two days money PN are taking for a service they are not providing.
The AUP should be dated and archived if it is referenced in the terms and conditions.
Wording a term and condition so badly that it says I cannot plug into an extension socket it utterly stupid. I do not know what my PSTN conditions have to do with this.
Terms and Conditions are hard and fast. They are used by the courts to decide right and wrong. What you don't enforce now, you may decide to enforce later without opportunity for discussion. If it says 10 days it means 10 days. If it says BT line it means a BT line, debating whether you enforce it or not is just obfuscation.
Every one of Jelv's points is detrimental and requires 30 days notice before it is implemented.
Finally, I think Plusnet should be giving us discounts after the last two months of appalling service -not imposing detrimental extra conditions and price increases. It has got better recently but only to a level it should never have dropped below.
Jim ( I feel like putting young Jim to avoid confusion - but it would be a lie!)

[#10]

Quote from: SteveA

Quote from: Mand @SteveA, after looking into this we haven't sent any BB only emails, can you let me know the reference at the bottom of your mail please? Sure its:  E_200912vat_3 Further down it does say Quote We're updating our charge for line rental to £11.25 a month from January, which covers the higher VAT rate. Some other call prices are changing too, so we've put together a new call pricing guide for easy reference. But doesn't really give any other details, apart from offering me a special offer to upgrade my phone service for free for three months, and I have to agree that it does look like PN are trying to hide things which they'd rather we didn't know.

I'm quoting my previous message in full because without it the context is lost.
Did you look into this and work out just why I was sent what looked like a BB email and offered me special upgrade offers on my phone service?
All in all this looks like another monumental cock up by PN - emails going out left right and centre which don't seem to make sense, don't match up to peoples products, and are leaving people all over the place scratching their heads.

[#11]

@Dogeron,
It's applicable to fault diagnostics and repair. Reasonable instructions could be to disconnect other equipment from the line temporarily, or to install software to troubleshoot an issue for example.
Access to your premises will only be needed if an engineer needed to visit.
It was in the old T+C's.
@EnglishMohican,
The only people affected by your first point are people billed on the 1st and 2nd of January (as they will have had 28 or 29 days notice). Everyone else actually gets cheaper service (as they  will have been billed in December for service in January).
We've moved the effective date for call charges to 7th January, so everone has had at least 30 days notice of these changes.
The AUP will be dated in future.
The point about extensions is valid. It is there to remove situations whereby you plug something into your line that has a detrimental affect on your broadband service. Your PSTN provider is likely to have a clause preventing you connecting things to the phone line anyway (BT Retail do for sure) which is why I referenced them.
The BT phone line part is a recent addition. As I said we don't currently enforce it, but it's possible we will in future.

[#12]

Quote from: SteveA

Did you look into this and work out just why I was sent what looked like a BB email and offered me special upgrade offers on my phone service?

The email you got was for BB + E+W, which is correct looking at your account?

[#13]

Quote from: Mand

The email you got was for BB + E+W, which is correct looking at your account?

E+W means evenings and weekends I take it?
It just seemed odd that the bit about the phone felt like it had been tacked on the end.
It just seems that given the way people are reacting and commenting that maybe things could have been handled differently. I don't know how - I'm not a Marketing or Sales or Legal guru, but it feels messy and disorganised and PN seem, once again, to be having to field questions that they really shouldn't have had to.

[#14]

... and they still haven't highlighted the 10 day contracts.

[#15]

Quote from: SteveA

E+W means evenings and weekends I take it? It just seemed odd that the bit about the phone felt like it had been tacked on the end. It just seems that given the way people are reacting and commenting that maybe things could have been handled differently. I don't know how - I'm not a Marketing or Sales or Legal guru, but it feels messy and disorganised and PN seem, once again, to be having to field questions that they really shouldn't have had to.

Yeah, E+W means Evenings and Weekends.
I can see your point, but the alternative is two emails on the same day to each customer taking both services, which doesn't seem the best idea to me.
That said, I'm no marketing, sales or legal guru either.