Can Plusnet cut back on the retrain aggressiveness after a rooter reboot?

[#1]

Hi,

I'm on ADSL2+. The line is solid.

My preferred all singing router works fine but sometimes it likes to restart itself, which I can live with but every single time that I log on to watch what it's doing .. it's spending a few minutes retraining which can be annoying if I'm doing something, even if it's not done it for a few days.

I had lots of line problems a year back (it WAS faulty hardware at the exchange as I had thought, I had a thread about it :)) ... and after BT OR replaced that, it was left in retrain mode and was a much better connection. I'm wondering if a setting has been left on to retrain every time the line drops? Ideally after a restart I just want a quick reconnect, it always seems to retrain from what I can see, I believe this is controlled the other end.

I seem to remember a plusnet guy on the forum could tweak how aggressively retraining is done, it's a setting, is that still possible? I'm not talking about no retrains just .. not every time.

(It's not restarting constantly and has extra features like VOIP which is why I'm not just using the simple one .. it can just get annoying as reconnect could be a lot quicker!).

[#2]

@Kwak Hi - An ongoing retrain mode is news to me, and I've been here a while too. Plusnet or the engineer can reset the "DLM" and as part of that does the retraining for about 10 days. This isn't really a mode per say just a change in how aggressively the DLM makes changes to the SYNC rate and parameters based on how many drops and errors it sees. At the end of that if all is working as it should will leave you with a sync rate within your estimate. 

I'm sure other forum members who know more about the workings of the DLM will reply in time but that's the gist of it.

Can I ask, why the ADSL? You know both FTTC and FTTP is available in your area. Honestly, there's no point in changing settings when you could move to 900Mbps FTTP.

Take a look > https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com/#/ADSL with your landline number for the product details in your area.

[#3]

@Kwak 

If FTTP is available to you then you'll need to move to it sooner or later or by end of 2025.

Use the Checker mentioned - if WBC FTTP appears in the left hand column this confirms availability.

Brian

[#4]

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@James30 wrote:

@Kwak Hi - An ongoing retrain mode is news to me, and I've been here a while too. Plusnet or the engineer can reset the "DLM" and as part of that does the retraining for about 10 days. This isn't really a mode per say just a change in how aggressively the DLM makes changes to the SYNC rate and parameters based on how many drops and errors it sees. At the end of that if all is working as it should will leave you with a sync rate within your estimate. 

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I suspect @Kwak is simply referring to his router (modem) 're-sync'  - not actually DSLAM line 'retraining'. 

Quoting the OP: "... router works fine but sometimes it likes to restart itself, which I can live with but every single time that I log on to watch what it's doing .. it's spending a few minutes retraining which can be annoying...

It sounds to me more likely a problem with the router (or just possibly, the line connection occasionally dropping).

I don't think there is any way to avoid the minute or two 're-sync' to reconnect - when that happens - which I believe is what he is hoping to short-cut.

[#5]

Thanks, I'm a bit worried now .. are you saying ADSL will be disabled if a fibre connection is available by end 2025?

I knew the PTSN (sp?) had an end date but I'd not heard that the ADSL had, I'd assumed from everything I'd heard we'd just put an adapter dongle into the router for phones, internet being internet once connected.

[#6]

"I suspect @Kwak is simply referring to his router (modem) 're-sync'  - not actually DSLAM line 'retraining'. "

No I'm saying it is training, at least that's what it says.

I know in past (unless I'm halucinating) I've seen the router go straight "in" if I happened to be logged into it when it connected.

Now however if I suspect the router has restarted (I normally hear it as there is an audible click that I believe is to do with the VOIP ports) I can log onto the router and watch it go through it's various connection states and once it does the initial handshake or whatever, it goes in (and sometimes out and in again) to "training" as a state for a period before eventually it settles down. It's a Draytek and shows the state information. I can't see any settings anywhere to do with it.

[#7]

@Kwak 

ADSL requires a phone line. When that goes, your ADSL goes with it. There is an OR digital product which allows ADSL only but if FTTP is available OR won't accept an order to provision it.

Brian

[#8]

@Kwak 

I meant to say only if FTTP isn't available. If it is, no provision of copper line products.

Brian

[#9 · Accepted solution]

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@Kwak wrote:

"I suspect @Kwak is simply referring to his router (modem) 're-sync'  - not actually DSLAM line 'retraining'. "

No I'm saying it is training, at least that's what it says.

I think we are at cross purposes due to different terminologies...

What your Draytek router calls 'Training' is what many people would call line 'Sync'ing'.

What @James30 thinks you are referring to is the DSLAM (exchange/street cabinet) '10 day 'training period' - the 10 days to 'characterise' your line and establish your stable speed with some safety margin.

These are two different processes (but related).

Normally there is no specific customer visibility of the state of DSLAM 10 day line training/characterisation (other than seeing occasional 're-sync; and speed and/or SNR target changes during that particular 10 day period).

What you appear to be asking about is the one or two minutes it takes to 're-sync' when either your router re-starts, or when line sync' is lost.

'Re-syncs' are unlikely to be the result of the particular DSLAM 10 day 'training' period - after the initial 10 days - except where it's a new service connection, or if a new 'training' period is re-initiated following some fault, or by special request.

Re-syncs can occur randomly as a result of poor line quality - spurious noise sources - power interruption - faulty router hardware, or router firmware updating  - BT Openreach maintenance, etc, etc.

If your router is spontaneously 're-starting' then you probably have some fault issue with the router.

If the DSL link is excessively 're-syncing' (re-'training', as your router may describe it) without the router re-booting - then you may have a fault with your line.

I'm not aware of any way to 'go straight in', as you put it, to reestablish an interrupted DSL link without the router needing to 'negotiate', 're-sync' with the exchange/street cabinet DSLAM. 

[#10]

Ahh ok I thought they were keeping the "copper" and removing the audio hardware so ADSL would still work.

I sit corrected. Well that's something to add to my todo list in the new year.

[#11]

To Mark280:

Ok it sounds like it was "selling me a dummy"! It definitely says training and I see on this support page:

https://www.draytek.co.uk/support/guides/kb-vigor-130-dsl-status

That for a different router (but very similar status page) they describe it as

"The state of "TRAINING" indicates that it is searching for a VDSL signal to sync with.

When the line is connected, it will display "SHOWTIME"."

Which is what you are of course saying.I'd assumed it was still doing the "training" where it's interogating/analysing the line to see what the connection speed can be etc after an install or when it has quality issues, as I've heard the term training used for I understood to be that. If Draytek had just used the more appropriate term "Syncing" this thread wouldn't exist Thanks for clearing that up.

It's not been a waste of time though - I knew about the PSTN switchoff, I don't think any articles I'd read ever mentioned ADSL would be switched off with it, so I won't be alone in realising it'll affect that. Many people with ADSL don't use their land line anyway so will probably think they are safe.

[#12]

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@Kwak wrote:

Ahh ok I thought they were keeping the "copper" and removing the audio hardware so ADSL would still work.

I sit corrected. Well that's something to add to my todo list in the new year.

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Your 'copper' line and ADSL will be around for a while yet.

BT are aiming to switch analogue phone service to digital phone service 'by 2025' (end of 2025) - but that in itself is not the end of 'copper lines' per se.

Digital phone service still works over copper wires (ADSL).

Furthermore - BT Openreach's September 'Stop Sell' policy of WLR (Wholesale Line Rental) dictates that existing BT (Openreach) based analogue phone service and ADSL would no longer be available for existing WLR customers who wish to make changes to their services (e.g. upgrades to FFTC, or some provider switches) - except in locations where no 'Fibre' based service is available.

However, your ADSL could potentially work beyond the analogue phone cut-off (late 2025) - if you stuck with the same provider and didn't upgrade anything.

BUT - that said - you will (most likely) find, that if you need to 're-contract' or switch provider, then your options will then be restricted/arm-twisted to upgrade to either FFTC/Full Fibre with digital voice service.

The big 'elephant in the room' here, is that Plusnet don't currently offer any digital phone service at all (whereas BT, EE, Sky and others already have a digital phone service).

[#13]

@Kwak 

I'm confused,  at the start of this topic you said -

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@Kwak wrote:

I'm on ADSL2+. The line is solid.

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but in a previous post  https://community.plus.net/t5/Broadband/ADSL-can-drop-connection-for-hours/m-p/1904932#M354018 

you said -

So what currently is your ADSL synced as ?   ADSL2 (G.992.3)   or   ADSL2+ (G.992.5)

I'm wondering if the DrayTek Vigor 2850Vn protracted re-sync attempts is happening because it is struggling to determine whether ADSL2 or ADSL2+ is more stable ?

My thinking is that you should be able to configure the modem to a fixed modulation, rather than let the link establishment sequence step through all the modulation auto-detection permutations, and therefore likely reduce the re-sync time by going straight to the correct setting.

[#14]

From  https://community.plus.net/t5/Broadband/ADSL-can-drop-connection-for-hours/m-p/1904940#M354023 

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@Kwak wrote:

... I was trained as an Electronic Engineer ...

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Given that your 2850Vn would have been manufactured around 2011,  and you are saying that it randomly reboots,

it is my experience in having used dozens of old routers and also being trained as an electronics engineer,

that it is most often the plug-in wall power supply adaptor starting to fail, that causes random reboots.

Given that you are/were an electronics engineer, do you have access to a voltmeter ?

It would be a quick and easy test, to check the DC voltage on the power lead is between +11.5V and +12.5V.

Replacement PSUs for the 2850Vn only cost £12 to £14.

[#15]

@Kwak 

Have you seen the DrayTek document  -  Troubleshooting an unexpected router reboot 

There might be something there that helps you narrow down the router reboots, if it's not the PSU as previously suggested