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Appalling speed after PN moved me from LLU to BTW

dunbankin
Dabbler
Posts: 24
Fixes: 1
Registered: 28-05-2008

Appalling speed after PN moved me from LLU to BTW

Am I alone here?  On 21 Aug, PN moved me from their LLU platform onto the BT Wholesale (BTW) platform.  They assured me I'd see no difference.  However, my connection speed immediately plummeted from 1800kbps to 1000kbps.  It's since decreased further to 896kbps.  Nothing's changed at this end, so the 50% reduction in connection speed is entirely down to BT (either the Plusnet BT people or the BTW BT people) mucking around with my line. 
I immediately reported it to Tech Support, and their response seems to be "Tough".  They are not interested in sorting out this problem.  After seven weeks of repeatedly pointing out that nothing has changed at my end, the last insulting feedback from PN Tech support said this:
"The line is already working better than expected for the line loss, you are clearly not helping matters for yourself as you are using an extension lead that is causing the line to be longer and therefore lower speeds.  If we were to raise this fault to have an engineer take a look you would most likely get charged for the call out, or the engineer would class the line as too long to support a service and therefore cease the line so it cannot get ADSL with any supplier"
I was getting consistent 1800kbps at the end of the extension, so they've deliberately misunderstood the issue again.  There's no point in an engineer coming here - it's the exchange he needs to go to.  Moreover they're now as good as threatening to disconnect me.
Am I alone in suffering from PN switching me from LLU to BTW?  Is anyone else getting indifference from PN Tech Support?  Is there any reconfiguration that can be performed on the clearly inferior BTW platform to get the sort of connection speeds I was getting on the LLU platform?
Rgds
John Davies
30 REPLIES
Community Gaffer
Community Gaffer
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Re: Appalling speed after PN moved me from LLU to BTW

Hi there,
Doesn't sound like you've had the best of times since switching from LLU to BT.
Quote
I was getting consistent 1800kbps at the end of the extension, so they've deliberately misunderstood the issue again.

We need to see what speed you are syncing at without the extension lead being present, they can degrade over time and are a cause of a huge %age of line speed problems. In order to fix your fault we need to follow a number of steps and one of them is to test without any extension leads and use the master socket / test socket.
Quote
If we were to raise this fault to have an engineer take a look you would most likely get charged for the call out, or the engineer would class the line as too long to support a service and therefore cease the line so it cannot get ADSL with any supplier"

This only happens in rare instances and is normally where people are syncing at under 500k, which from your post you aren't.
I'll go take a look at your ticket and see what's going on, but we really need to see what line stats you get without using an extension lead.
If this post resolved your issue please click the 'This fixed my problem' button
 Chris Parr
 Plusnet Staff
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Re: Appalling speed after PN moved me from LLU to BTW

Your ticket has been ongoing for a while, however as I've said we need to test without the extension lead before we can raise the fault to our suppliers. It's either that or we need to advise you that if we do raise the fault and an engineers comes out there is the *potential* for a charge if he finds the fault to be caused by your internal wiring.
I'll raise the most recent comment on your ticket with the agents manager as it's unacceptable.
If this post resolved your issue please click the 'This fixed my problem' button
 Chris Parr
 Plusnet Staff
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Re: Appalling speed after PN moved me from LLU to BTW

Chris, could you explain how an extension lead is consistently giving a reasonable sync speed and then at precisely the time he is moved from LLU to BT it degrades? Seems one hell of a co-incidence to me!
You should be able to get his speed back to close to what it was on LLU - if he then ditches the extension he should see a further improvement.
jelv (a.k.a Spoon Whittler)
   Why I have left Plusnet (warning: long post!)   
Broadband: Andrews & Arnold Home::1 (FTTC 80/20)
Line rental: Pulse 8 Home Line Rental (£13/month)
Mobile: iD mobile (£4/month)
Community Veteran
Posts: 3,789
Registered: 08-06-2007

Re: Appalling speed after PN moved me from LLU to BTW

LLU != IP Profile DLM rubbish, with fixed SNR margins = better sync speed (with much higher FEC and HEC) on LLU
B.
dunbankin
Dabbler
Posts: 24
Fixes: 1
Registered: 28-05-2008

Re: Appalling speed after PN moved me from LLU to BTW

Chris: jelv is right.  I'll say it again: The sudden drop in connection speed happened on the day PN switched me from LLU to BTW.  That's clearly got nothing to do with my extension.  I can't permanently put the adsl modem next to the master socket by the front door  - it's not practicable.  There's no 13A outlet near it for a start.  The point is I've been happily using the extension into the study at the back of the house for years at a very satisfactory 1800kbps, with 12dB downstream noise margin.  The day PN switched me from LLU to BTW the speed dropped to 1000kbps.  There's no point getting a BT engineer to check here, because the change clearly happened at the exchange, not in my house. 
A few weeks back, with the very polite and helpful PN tech support guy [csa name removed], I checked the modem connected temporarily to the master socket (complicated partly by the fact that the BT i-plate won't now unscrew).  I got 1440kbps for a few days, then when I moved the modem back to the study the rate dropped to 1152kbps.  I'm prepared to put up with a drop of 288kbps at the end of the extension.  What I'm not prepared to put up with is PN unilaterally reducing my connection speed from 1800kbps to 896 kbps (that's what I'm getting today, still with 12dB DNM).
Chris: Can you please do all you can to help me?  I don't seem to be able to get the message across. 
jelv: You're right.  PN should be able to restore me to 1800kbps at the end of the extension.  That's what I was getting until the day PN switched me from LLU to BTW.
Barry Zubel:  I'm sure you're right, but could you translate into English for me?  ;-)
Regards
John
jim:red agents name removed as per forum rules mod:end
James
Grafter
Posts: 21,036
Registered: 04-04-2007

Re: Appalling speed after PN moved me from LLU to BTW

Quote
jelv: You're right.  PN should be able to restore me to 1800kbps at the end of the extension.  That's what I was getting until the day PN switched me from LLU to BTW.

Whilst in an ideal world, that is correct, in the broadband world the remit if from the master socket.  We are unable to raise a fault with BT if our customer is connecting from an extension socket unless we want to charge our customer £144+VAT for the pleasure.
What we can do though is to try to get BT to do a noise margin change.  However, I'm not willing to raise such a request until the line is plugged into the master.  Could you do that for me?
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Re: Appalling speed after PN moved me from LLU to BTW

As a matter of interest, would it cost more or less than the £144 to get BT to make the study socket the master?
jelv (a.k.a Spoon Whittler)
   Why I have left Plusnet (warning: long post!)   
Broadband: Andrews & Arnold Home::1 (FTTC 80/20)
Line rental: Pulse 8 Home Line Rental (£13/month)
Mobile: iD mobile (£4/month)
James
Grafter
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Re: Appalling speed after PN moved me from LLU to BTW

£15 plus call out charges plus VAT I believe.  Probably in the £85-100 range if it takes less than an hour.
dunbankin
Dabbler
Posts: 24
Fixes: 1
Registered: 28-05-2008

Re: Appalling speed after PN moved me from LLU to BTW

Hi jameseh:
I've actually already done this with the very patient and helpful link:csa removed a couple of weeks back. 
The results were (you can check this on ticket 29912451 - I assume you have access to it):
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[CSA Name Removed]  12:58pm, Wednesday 23rd September 2009
[internal]
Test results when connected to master socket (was previously at extension)
Test Outcome : Pass


Circuit Sync Status : Circuit In Sync


Mux Port Status : In Service



Upstream Link Info

Loop Loss Loop Loss Add Text SNR Margin Errored Seconds HecErrors Cell Count Speed
42 12 29 1 84211664 448


Downstream Link Info

Loop Loss Loop Loss Add Text SNR Margin ErroredSeconds HecErrors CellCount Speed
62 10 0 0 185652887 1440


DSL Max Data

BIP Interface Data

Current line rate Line rate change timestamp Maximum Stable Rate Recalcuated ProfileTimestamp Maximum Stable Rate
750 2009-09-05T10:51:56 N 2009-08-24T13:51:47 1152



Fault Threshold Rate Interleaving Flag ServiceOption ServiceOption Status ServiceOption Update Timestamp
921 A 1 THIS LINE IS STABLE AND WITHIN ERROR/RETRAIN LIMITS FOR THE CHOSEN SERVICE OPTION (ILQ=A) 2009-08-11T01:08:49

Kind regards,
[CSA Name Removed]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Is that enough for you? 
You'll see that downstream connection speed was 1440kbps.  When I went back to the extension socket, the rate dropped to 1152kbps.  It dropped further to 896 kbps on Friday, and it's still there today, with 12dB DNM (see attached).
If I understand Barry Zubel's cryptic comments correctly, he seems to be saying that LLU does not have BT's IP profile and Dynamic Line Management (which he considers to be rubbish), and that LLU provides a better sync speed with more forward error correction and hardware error correction.  Is that right?
Not sure what a "noise margin change" is or achieves, but if you think it's worth while then let's give it a go, as long as you can make do with Adheel's entry on the ticket in order to prod BTW into improving the line....
Regards
John
[Moderator's note by Adie (Adiewoo) CSA name removed as per Forum Rules
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Re: Appalling speed after PN moved me from LLU to BTW

Barry is correct...  only the BT system uses dynamic line management of this type. Noise margin change "should" give you higher speeds but at the risk of lower stability on your sync. It's probably worth a try.
Your attenuation is very high though..  are you a long way from the exchange? You can check here...  http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/adslchecker.php
As a slight aside (and maybe I shouldn't ask this, but what the hell!) ..  what training do the CSC staff receive before they are let loose? And does PN recruit helpline staff that have at least some basic knowledge of ADSL systems? There are obviously some very experienced second-level support staff at PN but the degree to which they get involved on these pages is, quite frankly, surprising. All of these shouts for help are visible to the outside world and can't really be helping the PN cause!!!
James
Grafter
Posts: 21,036
Registered: 04-04-2007

Re: Appalling speed after PN moved me from LLU to BTW

Right - Now how do I convince you to stay connected at your master socket?
If you stay there, I can get your noise margin decreased, which should give you an extra 600-800Kbps.  But if you're just going to move back to your extention socket, the noise margin will just increase again.
Community Veteran
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Re: Appalling speed after PN moved me from LLU to BTW

If he trips over the power extension cable that he is having to use to be able to power the router at the master socket at your insistence and has an accident, presumably Plusnet will accept liability?
jelv (a.k.a Spoon Whittler)
   Why I have left Plusnet (warning: long post!)   
Broadband: Andrews & Arnold Home::1 (FTTC 80/20)
Line rental: Pulse 8 Home Line Rental (£13/month)
Mobile: iD mobile (£4/month)
Community Veteran
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Re: Appalling speed after PN moved me from LLU to BTW

@dunbankin
Are there any other LLU operators in your exchange? http://www.samknows.com/broadband/search.php
jelv (a.k.a Spoon Whittler)
   Why I have left Plusnet (warning: long post!)   
Broadband: Andrews & Arnold Home::1 (FTTC 80/20)
Line rental: Pulse 8 Home Line Rental (£13/month)
Mobile: iD mobile (£4/month)
James
Grafter
Posts: 21,036
Registered: 04-04-2007

Re: Appalling speed after PN moved me from LLU to BTW

Thanks Jelv.
Productive and informative.