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Any benefit of ADSL2 for long line? Advice please

maranello
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Re: Any benefit of ADSL2 for long line? Advice please

@ Adam_Walker
Shameless bump and full quote of preceding messages, but hopefully justified given that the request has become less prominent as a result of subsequent posts.
Quote from: _Adam_Walker_
@maranello
If you wish to give it a try we don't mind changing you over, then back again if you weren't happy. Each order we need to place should only take one working day to complete.
Adam

Quote from: maranello
Yes please Adam.
Up until now, the response I've received from Plusnet staff on the forum has always been to state that the policy was not to move customers with long lines onto ADSL2+ due to instability issues, but no mention of ADSL2.
Router is currently configured to automatically connect using the detected modulation (if that's the correct terminology). Do I need to change it to ADSL2 only to ensure it doesn't attempt to connect using ADSL2+?  I would like to avoid this possibility as it could appear as an unstable line so that target noise margin is increased
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maranello
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Re: Any benefit of ADSL2 for long line? Advice please


Having had no response, I tried the official route, and submitted a request to be moved onto ADSL2. This is the response to Question #68350716
Quote
Dear Mr *******,
Thank you for getting back to us.
Unfortunately we would be unable to place you onto an ADSL2 product, BT Wholesale equipment only gives the option of ADSL2+.
The reason for this as ADSL2/ADSL2+ are basically the exact same protocol the only difference is that they operate on a slightly wider frequency band, the differences can be seen below;
ADSL2: 28kHz - 1.1MHz
ADSL2+: 28kHz - 2.2MHz
So as with any ADSL service in the UK your line will only receive the best effort speed and as your line is capable of a maximum downstream rate of 4Mb/s the bandwidth would never reach a frequency high enough to reach the specification of ADSL2+ as your downstream rate must synchronise at over 12Mb/s with the exchange.
However the protocols are backwards compatible and some routers do allow you to chose the xDSL protocol you wish to connect using.

This contradicts the response from Adam Walker earlier in this thread, and a further communication from CSC (Question #68369958)
Quote
Dear Mr *****,
We have now placed the order to regrade your broadband service.

As the second response is later, I think the regrade is going ahead, but with somewhat less confidence than I would have expected.
I'm still concerned that I may be put on the wrong protocol and and up with a marginally improved line speed at the expense of reduced stability and frequent resyncs leading to an increased target SNR margin which takes away any gain in speed. In short, a lot of hassle for no gain.
! would appreciate some re-assurance from Plusnet staff that this will not be the case
My other car isn't a Ferrari
jelv
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Re: Any benefit of ADSL2 for long line? Advice please

If they put you on to ADSL2+ you can force it down by selecting what you want to use in your router. What you can't do is force it up above the exchange setting. So even if they have put you on 2+ it should be OK and will mean you can evaluate which is the better for your line.
jelv (a.k.a Spoon Whittler)
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maranello
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Re: Any benefit of ADSL2 for long line? Advice please


This is getting more frustrating by the day!!!
There is now a service notice on my account (#159175554) which tells me my service will be transferred to 21CN by midnight on 18/04/13. But I was already on 21CN.
My past experience has been that problems get dealt with competently when addressed by PN staff via the forum. However, I recognise that this is not an official support facility and I believed that having got the initial advice here I could then use the official Help and Support facility to change my account over to ADSL2. But all this appears to have achieved is confusion and contradiction.
Please could someone from Plusnet respond to this post and give me some clarity over what is happening.
My other car isn't a Ferrari
orbrey
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Re: Any benefit of ADSL2 for long line? Advice please

Hi there,
It's a standard service notice and nothing to worry about - it'll be because the upgrade was placed via XML rather than manually. I'm glad to say the order's completed and your service is now up to 24Mb rather than being ADSL1 on 21CN Smiley
maranello
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Re: Any benefit of ADSL2 for long line? Advice please

Thank you Matt for the reassuring response.
Do I need to reboot the router or will the change have forced it to happen?
I've got the TG582n router, how can I force this to ADSL2 rather than ADSL2+ in case the latter results in loss of stability?
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orbrey
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Re: Any benefit of ADSL2 for long line? Advice please

Usually it selects on its own, I suspect there'll be a telnet command that'd do it but I'm afraid I'm not aware what it might be. I've dropped Matt Turner an email to find out and will update you when I get a reply, unfortunately he's not in the office at the moment.
spraxyt
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Re: Any benefit of ADSL2 for long line? Advice please

Do your router stats now show DSL Type ITU-T G.992.3 or ITU-T G.992.5? If so the change is in place, no need to reboot.
If none of the frequencies above 1.1MHz contribute anything to throughput the connection will automatically drop down to ADSL2 - no need to force that. I suggest seeing how you get on before trying to change things.
If you do choose to force ADSL2 it has to be done via telnet and the CLI. The procedure is described in Community Support Library article Forcing Modulation on the Thomson 585v7. Though that article was written for the TG585v7 the procedure is the same on the TG582n.
David
orbrey
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Re: Any benefit of ADSL2 for long line? Advice please

Ah, are they the same commands? I'd found a (huge!) pdf of telnet commands for the 582n on the AA wiki here: http://wiki.aa.org.uk/index.php/TG582N#Documents (CLI guide) which suggests syntax is a little different, though please correct me if I'm wrong.
If that guide is right, it'd be:
xdsl config adslmultimode=adsl2

Substituting adsl2 for either adsl or adsl2plus for the other options.
@maranello worth trying both I think, please let us know how you get on. If you're not sure about telnet the guide for the 587 that spraxyt linked to tells you how to turn that on (if needed, windows 7 doesn't have it on by default) and how to connect to the router.
Hope that helps Smiley
spraxyt
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Re: Any benefit of ADSL2 for long line? Advice please

My impression is that both commands achieve the same thing though I'm not sure if they are exactly equivalent. However as far as I'm aware only the "debug" form allows a choice to be given.
David
maranello
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Re: Any benefit of ADSL2 for long line? Advice please


Thanks Matt, and spraxyt, for the help and advice.
For information, the router is connected on G.992.3, since early morning. Currently sync speed is around 2800kbps with noise margin of 5.9dB.
slightly down on what it. has been of late.
i have not had to force anything, and I think I will resist interfering and just wait and see what happens for now. But initial indications are that there is no improvement as a result of the change.
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jelv
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Re: Any benefit of ADSL2 for long line? Advice please

What's the noise margin on the upstream?
jelv (a.k.a Spoon Whittler)
   Why I have left Plusnet (warning: long post!)   
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maranello
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Re: Any benefit of ADSL2 for long line? Advice please

@jelv
I don't know what is significant about the upload margin, but in any case I have attached the router stats.
Quote
Link Information
   

Uptime: 1 day, 16:39:59

DSL Type: ITU-T G.992.3

Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 440 / 2.842

Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/MB]: 28,03 / 650,24

Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12,7 / 0,0

Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 35,4 / 61,0

SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 16,1 / 5,1

System Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / ----

Chipset Vendor ID (Local/Remote): BDCM / IFTN

Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 9 / 0

Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 1 / 0

Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Link (Remote): -

Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 535 / 0

FEC Errors (Up/Down): 1.770 / 129.537

CRC Errors (Up/Down): 21 / 2.046

HEC Errors (Up/Down): 26 / 16.434

BT test results also added.
Quote
Download speedachieved during the test was - 2.45 Mbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 1.2 Mbps-4 Mbps.
IP Profile for your line is - 2.51 Mbps

Upload speed achieved during the test was - 0.22Mbps
Additional Information:
Upstream Rate IP profile on your line is - 0.45 Mbps
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Oldjim
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Re: Any benefit of ADSL2 for long line? Advice please

Your upstream is capped and you are on ADSL2
Whether uncapping the upstream will ultimately affect the downstream can only be found from experience but capping/uncapping only takes 24 hours
My guess is that uncapping the upstrem will only give you an extra 100kbps or so as the noise margin will probably finish up at about 9dB
Given all that the upstream speed from the speed test is rather low
Anotherone
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Re: Any benefit of ADSL2 for long line? Advice please

Hi maranello. As Jim has said, it's a case of suck it and see. Do you know what time of day the changeover took place? If you took those last stats shortly before you posted them, then I'd guess the changeover was around 5.30-6.00am.
Have a look at the stats at around mid-dayish. If the SN Margin Down is better (higher) than about 6.5dB and steady (check it several times over the course of say 10 minutes) then it might be worth doing a resync to try and get a slightly better sync speed - but do it in the following way -
Login to the modem/router, go to the Internet Box and click Disconnect - this drops the PPP session (not sync) similar to what you'd do if you were doing a Gateway hop but without clicking Connect at this point, then wait about a minute then power off the modem/router. Stay off for about 10 minutes, then power up again, login, see what the stats look like and if all is well click Connect to establish a PPP session. (this method  means DLM shouldn't see this as a dropped connection).