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ASDL speed - with house wiring - removes orange bell wire improves speed. Why?

dougrice
Rising Star
Posts: 218
Thanks: 1
Fixes: 2
Registered: ‎06-08-2007

ASDL speed - with house wiring - removes orange bell wire improves speed. Why?

My ADSL speed has been 136K fro a week now!
My modem reports train ups of 3600 ish.
When I direct connect to the master socket I get 5200
Attach the telephone extensions, it drops to 3600.
I noticed that my Solwise ADSL micro filters ( purchased back in 2003 ) only had two connections on the plug for pins 2 and 5. ( All phones are filtered by these at the phone end of the extension. )
So I disconnected the orange bell wire at the master socket, and now my modem trains up at 5100.
What is the physics behind this? My Solwise 715 allows ADSL SHOW CHANNELS command which dumps the bits each bit bin can handle, and I get more channels handling bits with the bell wire disconnected.
Why?
many thanks, Doug
10 REPLIES 10
samuria
Grafter
Posts: 1,581
Thanks: 3
Registered: ‎13-04-2007

Re: ASDL speed - with house wiring - removes orange bell wire improves speed. Why?

for full details see
http://yarwell.blogspot.com/2005_08_01_yarwell_archive.html
Basically the ring wire isnt used anymore and all is does it act as an antena to collect noise
Peter_Vaughan
Grafter
Posts: 14,469
Registered: ‎30-07-2007

Re: ASDL speed - with house wiring - removes orange bell wire improves speed. Why?

Remember to disconnect the ring wire at both ends. Leaving one end connected can still cause interference. Also do the same for any other wires you have connected so you only have 2 & 5 from master socket to phone socket.
The ring wire introduces noise into the main 2 wires which reduced your SNR (signal to noise ratio). The higher your SNR, the better chance of getting a faster sync rate with ADSL Max.
ADSL filter/splitters have circuitry to cater for the bell wire (although most modern phones don't need it) so you don't actually need it.
oliverb
Grafter
Posts: 606
Registered: ‎02-08-2007

Re: ASDL speed - with house wiring - removes orange bell wire improves speed. Why?

Could be worth getting a faceplate splitter to go on your master socket? Much dearer than microfilters I'll admit but very effective and much tidier.
Its also worth noting that many phone extension kits contain poor quality cable.
penfold
Aspiring Pro
Posts: 2,280
Thanks: 25
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Registered: ‎01-08-2007

Re: ASDL speed - with house wiring - removes orange bell wire improves speed. Why?

Just thought I would ask. A couple of years ago, I had a new NTE5 fitted after a line fault. I have looked inside this, and there are only 2 wires connected on BTs side of the NTE5. ( I didnt pull it all to bits ;), just the front off and looked with a torch.) I have no 3rd wire at all, and no wired extensions. My phone still rings however, even with no filters, and connected directly to the NTE5. I have however a box on the windowsill, that looks like a junction box. ( some nice chaps on the old forum, told me it wasnt one of those boxes that wreck ADSL!!!), and only 2 wires connected in there as well. Is this a normal arrangement, and will I ever have problems.
oliverb
Grafter
Posts: 606
Registered: ‎02-08-2007

Re: ASDL speed - with house wiring - removes orange bell wire improves speed. Why?

Sounds pretty normal. A phone line consists of only two wires. For historical reasons BT embed the ringer capacitor in the master socket along with a resistor and spark gap. All properly built microfilters ignore the ring wire and include their own ring capacitor. Most modems and some phones use a two-wire connection and include their own ringer capacitor anyway.
With dial phones all phones had the ring capacitor fitted but there was a link that had to be moved for extension phones to disconnect the capacitor so the extension phone's bell was connected to the master phone's bell.
itsme
Grafter
Posts: 5,924
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Registered: ‎07-04-2007

Re: ASDL speed - with house wiring - removes orange bell wire improves speed. Why?

Quote from: samuria
for full details see
http://yarwell.blogspot.com/2005_08_01_yarwell_archive.html
Basically the ring wire isnt used anymore and all is does it act as an antena to collect noise

If you move house I recommend that you put the ring wires back as not all phones have the ringing circuitry. I know that if I plug my extensions in without the filter fitted they do not ring.
Quote from: oliverb
With dial phones all phones had the ring capacitor fitted but there was a link that had to be moved for extension phones to disconnect the capacitor so the extension phone's bell was connected to the master phone's bell.

True, the old loop disconnect electro-mechanical phones, the ones with the bell, when dialling out the extensions use to tinkle. So to stop this all the extensions use to be fed from the master phone.
Now that phones don't use loop disconnect and electro-mechanical bells interference  no longer take place so the circuitry can be placed back into the phones.
dougrice
Rising Star
Posts: 218
Thanks: 1
Fixes: 2
Registered: ‎06-08-2007

Re: ASDL speed - with house wiring - removes orange bell wire improves speed. Why?

Many thanks for the posts, especially thanks for the links to Phil's corner on samuria's and itsme's posts.
I get similar 'frequency' plots when I do the ADSL SHOW CHANNELS command on my Solwise ADSL modem.
It seems to be a classic multipath problem where two signals route  via different paths and add together. You get a comb filter effect when a signal source drives two paths to the destination.
Peter_Vaughan
Grafter
Posts: 14,469
Registered: ‎30-07-2007

Re: ASDL speed - with house wiring - removes orange bell wire improves speed. Why?

err... if you say so  Tongue
dougrice
Rising Star
Posts: 218
Thanks: 1
Fixes: 2
Registered: ‎06-08-2007

Re: ASDL speed - with house wiring - removes orange bell wire improves speed. Why?

Here is an update. I am on cloud nine! Grin Smiley
When I had the  Bell wire ( pins 3 or 4 )  connected at my master socket It trashed my MaxDSL connection.
I disconnected it at the Master socket and my MaxDSL is MUCH MUCH MUCH better!.
My master socket as wired on my 1991 houseconnected the B wire to the bell wire via the 1u8F capacitor. This is in the removable bit of the NTE5 master socket. All six wires were being sent to the extensions in the house. Now only the Blue White wires are connected to pins 2 & 5.
My Line used to get 1M before MaxDSL.
I was MaxDSL'd and the Down Stream speed was about 3600K, but the speed tests have been 400K and down to 136K and really bad after getting back off holiday.
After I disconnected the bell wire at the master socket, my speed went up. Last night I got 5M download!!!!!!!
After 2 years of Support desk questions, I spent a few hours testing every filter in my house direct to the NTE5 master socket measuring with my Solwise 715 ADSL router. It allows you to do a command ADSL SHOW CHANNELS.
My ADSL Modem is normally at the other end of the phone extension wiring in my Computer den bedroom, with three phones spured off with filters at their sockets. This configuration must be typical but is not an option in Help pages.
Last Sunday, I established that the old Solwise microfilters only used two pins on the BT plug. They use pin 2& 5. I thought, Why do I need to connect the bell wire on Pin 3 ( or 4 )? When I disconnected it my download speed went up to what I got when directly plugged into the master socket.

So at the Master socket the house extension wire only connects the blueWhite & WhiteBlue wires to pins 2&5.
You MUST have micro filters with the bell capacitor in them, ( otherwise the phone will not ring ) for each Telephone.
I now have all my extensions connected with filtered phones using Solwise filters purchased back in 2003.
The effects are dramatic. All my phones are now crystal clear transmission.
Now I get unbelievable train up and download speeds.
I spoke to a plus net customer at work and he tried it tuesday night and his download speed went from 100K to 800K!
I brought a CE marked ADSL from the local Hardware store and it would only allow my ADSL modem to train up at 2800. The bell wire ( pins 3 or 4 ) were direct connected through.
After a reboot and a wait for my BRAS profile to re sync, My broad band may be broad band instead of hairline band!
My BRAS profile has been 4500 for three days now, instead of 500
dougrice
Rising Star
Posts: 218
Thanks: 1
Fixes: 2
Registered: ‎06-08-2007

Re: ASDL speed - with house wiring - removes orange bell wire improves speed. Why?


I have put a web page up, with examples of ADSL SHOW CHANNEL with and without the bell wire.
http://www.dougrice.plus.com/Erlangs/adsl.htm
The plots are consistant from day to day with minor variations.
My ADSL down stream speeds had  been decreasing over the week, with my Solwise 715 needed a reboot almost every time I turned on my PCs.
There seem to be nulls every 10 to 11 channels.
Am I right these are 40Khz apart?
My ADSL has been really good this week. Colleagues at work have tried it on their Plusnet ADSL connections and had major improvements as well.