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30 min tick ????

PeeGee
Aspiring Pro
Posts: 1,081
Thanks: 45
Fixes: 3
Registered: 05-04-2009

30 min tick ????

History:
At the fourth attempt, PN got Openreach to send an engineer to look at my line (it tested 98% balanced from the exchange!) and he replaced the NTE5 with an OR IDC version which removed all the wild SN variations. It's now 2 weeks on (with continuous complaints about mains extensions snaking across the living room floor) while I've been running with various combinations of dongle filters, filtered faceplate and test socket/extension connections. I've finally remade all the readily accessible "joints" for the extension wiring and there is no perceivable difference between test socket/filter and filtered faceplate/extension for the router/modem (Thomson TG585v7). The filtered faceplate has IDC connections for A and B as well as 2, 3, 4 and 5 with a dedicated CW1308 for ADSL and a separate CW1308 for telephones Including the bell wire, as one phone requires it - a filter is not permitted aesthetically.
The line is approx. 4.5km and currently is "best ever" Cool at  3872kbps/3.5dB/60.5dB down and 688kbps/7.0dB/37.5dB up (BT estimate 3Mbps or 68.8Mbps  Roll eyes for my line)
Problem:
The attached graph shows the Rx SN figures, 10 sec samples, reported by the Thomson and clearly shows a "tick" of -1dB or -1.5db at 30 min intervals (it drifts by a few seconds). The full wiring system is in place for the graph but it is typical for the 14 day period, though it has been up to -2dB while the wiring was being remade. Just to emphasise, the tick is also present with only the router connected through a dongle filter (two different models used) plugged into the test socket.
Finally, the "timer" may reset following an incoming phone call, caller display is enabled on the line and the tick also shows with a Netgear router.
As the connection holds down to 2dB SN (until "tick time" drops it by 1.5dB), any ideas on eliminating the annoyance would be appreciated.
TIA
Phil
Plusnet Fibre (Sep 2014), Essentials (Feb 2013); ADSL (Apr 2009); Customer since Jan 2004 (on 28kb dial-up)
Using a TP-Link TD-W9980 modem-router.
11 REPLIES
Plusnet Alumni (retired) chrispurvey
Plusnet Alumni (retired)
Posts: 5,369
Fixes: 1
Registered: 13-07-2012

Re: 30 min tick ????

Firstly I have adjusted your profile according to your sync rate, show your speeds should have now improved.
To try and narrow down your noise spike, is there anything in the list below that could be causing you your issue?
•   A current imbalance between two power carrying conductors (Earth leakage fault).
•   Faulty thermostats (Central heating, Immersion heaters).
•   Electrical power supply units (Laptops, Routers, Plasma TVs).
•   Industrial/Commercial power usage (Electric Railways, Electric fences, Electric motors).
•   Decorative electrical items (Christmas tree lights, Touch lights).
•   Security systems (PIR lights switching on and off).
•   Digital Communication Receivers (Satellite and Freeview set top boxes).
•   Internal power and telecoms cables run close together at the end user premises.
Lorian
Grafter
Posts: 699
Registered: 31-07-2007

Re: 30 min tick ????

Turn everything else in the house off except laptop, router/switches and see if the tick goes away. Then you'll know if it's outside or inside interference.
If it goes away it's a realtively simple process of elimination to work out the cause.
PeeGee
Aspiring Pro
Posts: 1,081
Thanks: 45
Fixes: 3
Registered: 05-04-2009

Re: 30 min tick ????

I put this in the other thread (http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,107739.0.html) in error, so repeating here  Embarrassed
Thanks for adjusting the profile, Chris.
Regarding the "tick", it is regular at 30min intervals (plus a drift of a few seconds), so unlikely to be a recurring random event. For example, today the sequence was at 28 and 58 min past the hour until a phone call at 13:44 then at 15 and 45 from 13:45. Checking that on RouterStats reminds me that incoming calls also cause a similar sized blip as well as resetting the interval Embarrassed
What I may not have made clear is that this all occurs (including the incoming call blip) with the router connected to a dongle filter plugged into the test socket and nothing else connected - no extension wiring, no phones. Also, the nearest power to the master socket is the ceiling light/light switch and a door bell transformer at ceiling level; the nearest power socket/cable is more than 2m away (the floor above!), so any power interference is probably via the router power supply. All electrical equipment in regular use is at least 5m from the master socket and mostly in standby/off overnight. Perhaps there is still a joint problem somewhere in the 4.5km of line.
Regarding your list, I'll have to think about it but nothing springs to mind; there is a major power user within 100m, but I don't think the MRI and CAT scanners etc will have that effect Roll eyes
Phil
Plusnet Fibre (Sep 2014), Essentials (Feb 2013); ADSL (Apr 2009); Customer since Jan 2004 (on 28kb dial-up)
Using a TP-Link TD-W9980 modem-router.
PeeGee
Aspiring Pro
Posts: 1,081
Thanks: 45
Fixes: 3
Registered: 05-04-2009

Re: 30 min tick ????

Quote from: Lorian
Turn everything else in the house off except laptop, router/switches and see if the tick goes away. Then you'll know if it's outside or inside interference.
If it goes away it's a realtively simple process of elimination to work out the cause.

Basically a good idea, but not sure it would explain the following (which I put in another thread in error).
Quote from: PeeGee
Regarding the "tick", it is regular at 30min intervals (plus a drift of a few seconds), so unlikely to be a recurring random event. For example, today the sequence was at 28 and 58 min past the hour until a phone call at 13:44 then at 15 and 45 from 13:45. Checking that on RouterStats reminds me that incoming calls also cause a similar sized blip as well as resetting the interval Embarrassed

Quote from: ReedRichards
Quote from: PeeGee
Checking that on RouterStats reminds me that incoming calls also cause a similar sized blip as well as resetting the interval Embarrassed

I'm not sure where I'm going with this question but do you still get a blip in response to a 'silent' incoming call if you have no telephone connected?

Yes, there is a blip with no phones connected which appeared on RouterStats graph before the first "ring" on my mobile - but not possible to determine if it was the first ring out from the exchange or the caller display data. However, the extension wiring was still in place.
phil
Plusnet Fibre (Sep 2014), Essentials (Feb 2013); ADSL (Apr 2009); Customer since Jan 2004 (on 28kb dial-up)
Using a TP-Link TD-W9980 modem-router.
PeeGee
Aspiring Pro
Posts: 1,081
Thanks: 45
Fixes: 3
Registered: 05-04-2009

Re: 30 min tick ????

I knew I should have waited ...  Cry
This happened from 00:31 -
Plusnet Fibre (Sep 2014), Essentials (Feb 2013); ADSL (Apr 2009); Customer since Jan 2004 (on 28kb dial-up)
Using a TP-Link TD-W9980 modem-router.
oldgeezer
Grafter
Posts: 208
Registered: 02-02-2010

Re: 30 min tick ????

Quote from: PeeGee
I
Regarding the "tick", it is regular at 30min intervals (plus a drift of a few seconds), so unlikely to be a recurring random event. For example, today the sequence was at 28 and 58 min past the hour until a phone call at 13:44 then at 15 and 45 from 13:45. Checking that on RouterStats reminds me that incoming calls also cause a similar sized blip as well as resetting the interval Embarrassed

Phil

Regarding the tick and it's 30 minute timing might I make a suggestion ?
Prior to my retirement I worked in the electrical engineering sector for about 40 years.
Many large electrical consumers are charged on a "Maximum Demand" tariff.
This is measured on special metering equipment and logs the maximum of power taken in any 30 minute period, The amount they pay is linked to their maximum demand, (more max demand means more expensive distribution equipment).
Perhaps your local electrical distribution company are sending pulses through their system to co-ordinate their metering equipment.
Many years ago they used superimposed tones on the distribution system in order to switch street lighting on and off. These tones were in the hundreds of hertz range and could be sometimes heard on telephones.
Just a thought but I can't think of anything else that has a 30 minute repetition rate.
Oldgeezer.
PeeGee
Aspiring Pro
Posts: 1,081
Thanks: 45
Fixes: 3
Registered: 05-04-2009

Re: 30 min tick ????

Oldgeezer,
That's an interesting possibility, especially with a major hospital 100m away - though obviously fed separately ("my" local transformer is across the road and the hospital was built 8 years after the house). I would be surprised, though, if a phone call to me would affect the timing.
Lorian,
Thought I'd follow your advice and eliminate everything possible Wink Worked through reconnecting things and eventually plugged the telephones back in, then received a phone call, 1min 5secs after the call ended a -3dB blip appeared and another one 30m 10s later. Both were for two RouterStats samples with 5s sample interval (the minimum).
Update: I've just cobbled another setup for the ADSL and phone extensions and there is an improvement, but I have a problem with the DECT phone that drops the ADSL connection when it is plugged in and reconnects at half speed - which could explain the blips and why incoming calls reset the "timer" Sad  It's a patchwork of doublers, filters etc so I'm giving up for today and running without it (plus the hassle is getting to me Roll eyes )
Update 2: 09:15 2012-09-19 Still running lashup, but connection has held for 15hrs 25mins at  3887kbps, 2.5dB SN, 61.5dB attn. There is still a 30min blip (08:32:54 and 09:03:00 - 10 second sampling, and a logging break between blips), though smaller than previously.
Phil
Plusnet Fibre (Sep 2014), Essentials (Feb 2013); ADSL (Apr 2009); Customer since Jan 2004 (on 28kb dial-up)
Using a TP-Link TD-W9980 modem-router.
PeeGee
Aspiring Pro
Posts: 1,081
Thanks: 45
Fixes: 3
Registered: 05-04-2009

Re: 30 min tick ????

Think I have found the problem  Embarrassed
We have a BT Decor 1200 phone (caller display, 1571 message indicator/button ..) and the tick disappeared when it was unplugged overnight, re-appearing immediately it was plugged in again - why I missed that before, I'm not sure as I must have seen it. We have caller display active on the line.
Phil
Plusnet Fibre (Sep 2014), Essentials (Feb 2013); ADSL (Apr 2009); Customer since Jan 2004 (on 28kb dial-up)
Using a TP-Link TD-W9980 modem-router.
Plusnet Alumni (retired) chrispurvey
Plusnet Alumni (retired)
Posts: 5,369
Fixes: 1
Registered: 13-07-2012

Re: 30 min tick ????

Hope that is sorted for you!
If this does persist let me know.
PeeGee
Aspiring Pro
Posts: 1,081
Thanks: 45
Fixes: 3
Registered: 05-04-2009

Re: 30 min tick ????

Chris,
A bit slow to respond as after my last post I was away for a few days. Since returning I have remade the internal connections and cleaned the NTE5 filter plate contacts.
The blip (which I now think is the phone checking for a 1571 message - it has a dedicated LED/button) has not been visible in the last hour after reconnecting the modem, with the SN graph almost flat (probably just below 3.75dB with a 0.5dB granularity) and a sync of 4.039Mbps at 60dB attn. So thanks to everyone who helped Smiley
The BTW speed test returned 3.22Mbps download, which is more than the 3Mbps sync I was hoping to get at the end of the fault process - so I'm highly delighted  Grin
Phil
Plusnet Fibre (Sep 2014), Essentials (Feb 2013); ADSL (Apr 2009); Customer since Jan 2004 (on 28kb dial-up)
Using a TP-Link TD-W9980 modem-router.
Plusnet Help Team
Plusnet Help Team
Posts: 12,811
Thanks: 108
Fixes: 34
Registered: 27-04-2007

Re: 30 min tick ????

I'm glad to hear you're pleased with that. I'll let Chris know.
If this post resolved your issue please click the 'This fixed my problem' button
 Adam Walker
 Plusnet Help Team