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Will DLM apply G.INP (Downstream) to line configured as FASTPATH?

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Anywho
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Will DLM apply G.INP (Downstream) to line configured as FASTPATH?

Hey

I have a very error prone line (with bursts too!) that I have been managing in FASTPATH... but now that I have G.INP capable firmware for my modem (I think! If not I will just get a hg612 or something) I'm thinking a bit of error correction might be a good thing?

Will DLM eventually apply ReTx to my line (Downstream)... or do I need to have interleaving (Downstream) turned on first?

 

Can someone at Plusnet do whatever they have to do to persuade the DLM to consider applying ReTx to my Downstream connection please?

 

As ever, no rush... whenever you get around to it... I'm in no hurry whatsoever. I just hope the latency hit is not too bad!

Thanks

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Gandalf
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Re: Will DLM apply G.INP (Downstream) to line configured as FASTPATH?

As far as I'm aware retransmission (ReTX) is a setting that's applied onto a fibre line. 

What's the end goal you're wanting to achieve, to get more speed? The SNRM target is at 12dB with the actual SNRM currently 8.6dB. Ideally to provide more speed, we'd need to reduce this and if your connection starts dropping, we can apply interleaving or increase the stability profile to try to make your line more stable that way. 

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 Anoush Mortazavi
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Anywho
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Re: Will DLM apply G.INP (Downstream) to line configured as FASTPATH?

Just trying to get the most out of my line. I know its only lipstick on a pig at this point (hence no urgency). It would be nice to address the errors without impacting latency too much (Can you apply FEC without Interleaving?).

It stings a little that if I had bought a house 10 minutes down the road I would be enjoying 30Mbps FTTC for less money than I currently spend for my guaranteed 1.2Mbps! Yes, I can usually achieve 7Mbps throughput - but its worrying that I would have to put up with 1.2Mbps!!

If the Huawei cabinet I'm connected to doesn't do G.INP then don't worry about it - but I thought Impulse Noise Protection applied to ADSL and VDSL (copying ADSL transmissions must be pretty similar to copying VDSL transmissions?)... maybe you are thinking about vectoring?

If I drop the SNRM target any more then I will get resets every couple of days when I get the noisy bursts - I'm trying to avoid that.

 

(BTW: If you check my SNRM at around 3.30pm its nearly 10dB [I originally synched at a little over 10dB so most of it returns eventually]...this firmware behaves/reports differently - but the errored seconds are pretty much the same@1500/day!)

FYI: This firmware "feels" worse, though I have no real data to back that up and errors are similar, so if I can't get G.INP I will probably return to the other firmware - just wanna give this a bit of time first.

 

Gandalf
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Re: Will DLM apply G.INP (Downstream) to line configured as FASTPATH?

There is INP for ADSL, in the form of interleaving I can only set as on, off, or automatic to let DLM decide. 

I can also change the stability profile between Standard, Stable, Super Stable, and Custom. Currently, you're on a custom profile I set previously, which should stop DLM from making positive changes to the line, like lower the SNRM.

I could drop the stability profile down to Super Stable or Stable and turn on interleaving. 

Also, your line's not that long, and it should be able to cope fine at 6dB. If it can't then that suggests an underlying issue we should arrange an Openreach engineer to take a look at. Plus, our tests are showing a potential lead-in wiring issue, which is the cable from the drop-wire outside into your property. 

What are your thoughts?

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 Anoush Mortazavi
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Anywho
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Re: Will DLM apply G.INP (Downstream) to line configured as FASTPATH?

Thanks very much for your interest - I mean that quite sincerely.

TL;DR - Maybe try interleaving (Low) Standard again (Stable might make the interleaving too aggressive - I cant alter that)? 6dB target if you want - we can see how the new modem copes?

 

Long version...

I'm reluctant to change anything because my line is currently serviceable - I'm not completely unhappy with what I have... but I really think the household would begin to suffer and have to make too many compromises if things got much worse. I have no reason to think that things will get worse btw.

I also do not want to make requests of Plusnet on a whim and then ask to go back to what I had (hence my reluctance to have interleaving reapplied - even though I really would like to see what happens with this new modem that handles ADSL2+ better)!

When interleaving was last on my line the latency to League Of Legends servers was still only around 45ms - which was not a huge problem. And I usually synched at around 6-7Mbps on ADSL2 with barely any errors (I forget the exact SNRM - my records are archived away somewhere - I think it was 8 or 9dB).

So Interleaving is still on the table for me. But, of course it brings over-heads.

I will say... If I sync at a quiet time at 6dB my rate will be around 10Mbps and the line will fail within hours. I'm not that bothered about resets unless I'm in the middle of a game of poker - then I might get quite upset! Timing-out with a box of aces is more than a little tilting!!

All this leads me to believe that if I have an interleaved line @6dB SNRM I can probably sync at about 9Mbps. Lets assume thats stable thanks to interleaving (though I suspect there will still be uncorrected errors at this rate) I'm in no better position than I am currently - and I would have 20ms more latency (worse) to LOL. But, if the DLM then decided to enable G.INP - then I would begin to benefit I think! G.INP = Higher sync and lower latency!!

 

A few years ago (2015 maybe?) we had a Telecoms engineer out for something (probably this noisy line... I'm sure it was at your expense - so maybe you have records somewhere?). He left us with a NTE5 type front plate in the living room where the DSL and Phone line are already split and it is the only telephone point in the house with DSL - removing any possibility that extensions cause any problems I believe. I think he did something at the cabinet and left it at that.

Your mention of the drop-wire sparks some sort of recognition - but I cannot remember what that previous engineer said (if anything) about it. The driveway at the side of the house has an incline though, so maybe he couldn't access the wire with a ladder and needed a cherry-picker or something?Huh

 

Of course, with COVID I'm not too keen on having strangers in the house - so this may pose a further problem. Anyone is welcome to visit the outside of the house... there is always somebody home.

 

My line usually gets very noisy at around 10.30pm... so tonight I will resync and aim for 6dB SNRM at this noisy time (giving it the best chance of survival... prolly at a rate of about 9Mbps) just to see what happens. I suspect it will reset before I get up tomorrow.

Gandalf
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Re: Will DLM apply G.INP (Downstream) to line configured as FASTPATH?

Thanks for getting back to me @Anywho

No problem, it's no bother I'm happy to make changes to try things out for you and if it doesn't work out, I can change it back or make other changes. It's all part of troubleshooting and I enjoy getting to the bottom of a problem. 

With interleaving, it's either on, off, or let DLM decide. We can't change it to either high or low, unfortunately. I'd be inclined to change the stability profile to Stable, turn interleaving on and change the SNRM target to 6dB. 

However, anything we try it seems would be battling against the line to make your broadband work, when it looks like there's an underlying problem I'd say we should investigate, but I appreciate the concerns regarding a visit & COVID. Openreach would do everything they can to make an engineer visit as safe as possible, and they go into more detail Here.

We don't keep records back to 2015 as they'd be buried deep within our systems, the most we can see is 2 years back. I'm not entirely sure it'd help though even if we could refer back as it was so long ago, things can change and break over time. 

Have you given any further thought about upgrading to FTTP? It's available in your area, though it'd mean leaving us as we don't yet offer this, but we'd waive any termination fees if you move to BT or EE by calling us on 0800 013 2632. To me, it sounds like the ideal solution though it would also mean an engineer visit to install the service. 

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Anywho
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Re: Will DLM apply G.INP (Downstream) to line configured as FASTPATH?

I have no strong feelings about the profile at this stage... happy to go along with your suggestions - I will be quick to communicate if/when I do have strong feelings though! Don't reset me during the footy!!

The COVID concern is not just merely Tin Foil Hat syndrome... a member of the household has Cystic Fibrosis (was on the extremely vulnerable list when it existed) and COVID would probably not play nicely with their lungs.

I'm not sure that the slight risk (however small that may be perceived to be) is really worth it for a slightly better ADSL line.

If you dont want to play with the profile until the fault has been investigated that's fine too - no problem. My line functions - to my surprise it has behaved since my reset last night (the noise/errors came a bit earlier last night. I reset around 9.30pm [I wasn't going to be around for 10.30pm and I havent looked at scripting it yet!] and aimed for around 7dB in case it deteriorated again at 10.30pm). The SNRM did drop to just above 6dB at about 10.30pm, but I did not get a spike in errors at that time like I usually do).

Last 24 hours graphs (The CRC errors are actually recorded by my modem as HEC errors - I just didnt change the graph title/legends!). The error reporting is a bit quirky... its collected once a minute (ish) and it's showing the errors-per-day at any given minute (kinda pro-rated)... so I think where it says a peak of 600k CRC errors... it means 600k/24/60= 416 or 417 HEC errors that minute... or the 10k ES (of course, there are not 10k seconds in a minute - so that would be nonsense!) is more like 10k/24/60 which is a more reasonable 7 ES that minute. I'm not certain though!!

11843e70-6e55-4b68-97ab-cb6751c2e555.pngb67cb200-6c22-427a-af55-f3138d7306f9.png8e034269-20b7-4938-9475-11ff4f86e89d.png0f15985a-c6ee-4346-bc90-7214e401f241.png868c1252-76a5-4c91-86ac-58defd2b868b.png

The average ES has increased a bit... so I don't expect to retain sync for more than a couple of days. Especially after my Plusnet profile changes and I reset the PPP connection to Plusnet.

As for FTTP... I have been close to moving to BT these last few months; I've been with Plusnet for a very long time, and have always managed to sort out what few little problems there have been... eventually - with relatively little fuss. The legacy products carry over some nice little benefits that I would miss (even though I don't use any of them right now, I have tinkered with them and it's nice to have them available).

When it comes right down to the facts of what we actually need right now, my current deal more or less satisfies everything. Would it be nice to have more bandwidth? Of course it would... is it necessary? Probably not at this stage.

So, on balance, I'm not quite at the point where I want to change providers - but its a much closer call than its ever been!

I have little doubt that if/when Plusnet offered FTTP I would be all over it!

Anywho
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Re: Will DLM apply G.INP (Downstream) to line configured as FASTPATH?

The constant HEC errors above are somewhat masked by the huge peak increasing the scale on the y-axis... so here are the HEC errors (pro rated per-day remember) from the past hour.

I also included the ES for the week so that you can see the trends/patterns. Obviously, ignore scale since the SNRM target is not consistent over the period... but the pattern is still uesful.

d6886f74-2ac4-4c97-9be0-18e0a4ceb633.png058be9ff-db64-4bb3-a0e7-366587616e53.png

Gandalf
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Re: Will DLM apply G.INP (Downstream) to line configured as FASTPATH?

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Ah no problem, that makes absolute sense, and I'd recommend filling out our additional support form Here so we're aware and we can offer the best support we can where we can, which may be priority phone fault repair. 

I've had a think and I've placed an order to drop the stability profile to stable. I was going to move it to super stable, but it turns out that setting's only available on an FTTC connection and not ADSL. I've also enabled interleaving in an automatic state, which means that I'd be able to turn it on or off easily. The slight downside is that DLM will be able to as well. 

This change should go through from tomorrow, but may take 7 to 14 days to fully take effect. Depending on how your connection fares, my plan is turn on interleaving and change the SNRM target to 6dB. I can always put things back the way they were, if it goes horribly wrong, but let's see how it goes over the next few days. 

I appreciate brand loyalty, as I'm somewhat of an advocate when I find a business & service I like, and I'd hate to see you go after all these years. If you've managed with ADSL all this time and it's been fine, and you can for a little while longer, I believe we're expecting to bring out an FTTP product at some point this year, so not much longer to wait now. Smiley

Cheers

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Anywho
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Re: Will DLM apply G.INP (Downstream) to line configured as FASTPATH?

I only just checked the line in the last hour... and found it had been running for about 2 hours at 13.6+Mbps@1.6dB SNRM!! (Obviously my modem was adjusting the SNRM Target)

Heres a quick shot of the stats for the last hour before I reset FYI... the errored seconds are amazing!! 71834 ES per day (pro rated in that hour) out of a possible 86400 seconds in a day!!! How on earth did the modem hold on for 2 hours?? I guess the Plusnet profile would have been limiting me - and that probably helped (or not? I'm not on fixed IP - although my IP never changes... and I'm sure I read somewhere that dynamic IP doesnt use the plusnet profile... or is that just VDSL? I've read so much!).

13Mbps.png

You can see I removed my SNRM target numbers and reset the connection and will not play with it for the next few weeks or until we give up!

No sign of interleaving (or ReTX!) yet... guessing the line will have to reset a few times before that gets added.

Thanks for you're time again on this... it's appreciated.

Lets see what happens now!

Townman
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Re: Will DLM apply G.INP (Downstream) to line configured as FASTPATH?

"and I'm sure I read somewhere that dynamic IP doesn't use the Plusnet profile"

Correct - the IP profile only "engages" when using a Plusnet allocated static IP address.  It then only becomes an issue if there are any delays / problems with processing the updated IP profile from BT Openreach / Wholesale (if sent / received).

 

"although my IP never changes"

IP addresses are allocated "locally" not centrally, therefore if you disconnect an reconnect promptly you will invariably retain the same dynamic IP address.  Disconnections for longer than 90 minutes might acquire a different dynamic IP address.

Superusers are not staff, but they do have a direct line of communication into the business in order to raise issues, concerns and feedback from the community.

Gandalf
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Re: Will DLM apply G.INP (Downstream) to line configured as FASTPATH?

Cheers for getting back to me @Anywho 

No problem at all! Let me know how things go. Smiley

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Re: Will DLM apply G.INP (Downstream) to line configured as FASTPATH?

This is ALL just FYI - No action required!

One full day (no resets!!)

250122.png

 

There was some gaming between 6-10pm and no complaints at all - despite the huge number of HEC (CRC) errors

5k average ES is pretty high for me.

Usually, when the SNRM breaks 6dB (when throughput is running at 88% of synch) it all goes wrong... but this looks to have held up quite well.

My SQM graphs don't show any problems with latency or congestion or anything either.

I'm guessing a lot of this good behaviour is due to the bRAS/Plusnet profile (Plusnet is still reporting 7.8Mbps... I'm guessing DLM will not move the bRAS due to all of the errors and the "Stable" plan).

 

Although the line is synching faster I'm not seeing any improvement in throughput at all yet. So the reduction in SNRM is just wasted at this point. I may as well be synching at 8.8Mbps@9dB with fewer errors.

Anywho
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Re: Will DLM apply G.INP (Downstream) to line configured as FASTPATH?

Lost synch today just before 2pm... seems to have come back at same rate, but with Upstream Bitswap not enabled/activated?

Dont think I have noticed that before. Hardly any upstream errors.

No sign of interleaving.

260122.png

Gandalf
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Re: Will DLM apply G.INP (Downstream) to line configured as FASTPATH?

Cheers for the updates @Anywho

Would you like me to enable interleaving to see if that improves things?

Also, as a heads up I'll personally be out of the office (on holiday skiing in France) after this Friday and returning on 7th February, but my colleagues should be around and happy to offer advice & help in my absence.

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