What to do when source of REIN doesnt want to know!

[#1]

Hi @hitchhiker43, please know that we more than happy to carry out a fault in investigation however, just setting the correct expectation of what the outcome is likely to be.

A line test has been run and no faults are being detected and seeing a relatively stable connection. We can see some errors in the circuit and can increase the SNR to improve the tolerance however, just to note this will decrease the sync rate.

If you can raise a fault to us here and let us know once done, we'll pick it up for you. I'd make sure you have completed all troubleshooting and currently have your router in the test socket.

[#2]

Do the tests performed check out the longitudinal balance?

A line not having good balance will me more susceptible to REIN.

[#3]

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@aesmith wrote:

If a fault is raised with Plusnet they should do a proper investigation.  As I said earlier there are a number of checks that are supposed to be carried out before assuming it's irreparable due to REIN.

I think the problem is that all those extra checks and swapping one pair of wires for another and anything else they might do to improve the line itself would be chargeable if there isn't actually anything wrong with the line itself to start with. The original pair of wires being not quite as good as another pair doesn't necessarily mean the first pair are considered faulty.

[#4]

Hi folks,

All aspects of the line would be tested by an engineer when they are assigned to the fault. Our remote testing can only go so far but what we can see seems to indicate that the line is functioning as expected and given the history of this thread, the issue is likely to be the REIN interference as previously stated. As @ejs has correctly surmised, if an engineer does attend and finds no fault with the line, it is very likely that the visit will be chargeable.

That being said, as @LaurenB has confirmed, we're happy to ask our suppliers to investigate further to cover all bases and ensure that nothing has been missed that is outside of the REIN aspect of the situation - @aesmith please let us know if you raise a fault and we'll be happy to progress this for you.

Best wishes

Dave

[#5]

@hitchhiker43 rather than @aesmith - my apologies.

[#6]

Is this now a no fault found charge, rather than no fault fund in user premises charge? If yes, then not looking properly, the source of REIN not being present when the engineer attends, the attending engineer not having the skill to look for REIN just makes it 95% probable that the poor end user having a degraded service is going to pick up the bill for half-hearted BTOR investigation. Given the evidence already gathered, is there no 'fast route' to looking deeper into the issue … look not just at does the line work, but is the line of the highest quality … get a REIN engineer's boots on the ground up front, not after a multitude of engineer visits? Is there not already enough historical evidence on this account to indicate that there is a long-standing issue which remains unresolved and therefore there should be some assurance that a charge will not be raised? Sorry for the lack of formatting here, but the forum editor is bust!

[#7]

@Townman 

Do you understand how someone's broadband could be affected by REIN while there is absolutely nothing wrong with any of the infrastructure that either Openreach or BTWholesale (since this as ADSL) are responsible for? It has nothing to do with someone not looking hard enough for the source of the REIN. Even if the first engineer who visits goes and confirms the source of the REIN, that would not change the fact that there was no fault on any part of the Openreach or BTWholesale equipment.

[#8]

@ejs,

Yes I do understand all too well - from butter experience.

As you’ve said before, the first step has to be ensuring that the line is as much as not susceptible to REIN.

Then there’s the investigation and location of the source ... if “the suppliers” can be engaged in a REIN case. A reasonable person would expect a party providing a service interferes with by a third party would want to ensure that their service provision was not degraded. Rather it seems that attitude is “not our problem if you cannot adequately receive our service”.

Sadly this is. Ore about who is to blame and not about how do we fix the service. Such marks BT as being so out of step with all other utility network providers. Gas, Electric and Water, it’s not who is to blame, but how do we fix it.

[#9]

Good morning all and thank you once again for your help

When OR visited several years ago the line was exhaustively tested (including Longitudinal balance) and no problems found, the drop cable was changed to try and improve matters and it did. There has been no substantial change in REIN events since that time so I do not think the line has degraded in any material way.

Pnet PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE ANY LINE SETTINGS, this will simply worsen the situation and cause instability.

Pnet again I will not raise a ticket as this will simply result in no change to the situation and a charge to me BUT perhaps you should have a standard letter to send out to interference sources interfering with service delivery to your customers ?

Pnet thank you for testing the line remotely, that explains the unexplained dropout I had the other day

I will wait until the end of the month then ask the guy what progress is being made in consultation with his electrician, if I get a bad response I will take the matter up with trading standards and/or possibly the electricity supply authority.

In the meantime I would hate to be a broadband customer with REIN and no engineering knowledge, as far as I can see there is no means available to resolve there problem

[#10]

Hi @hitchhiker43 

Pnet PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE ANY LINE SETTINGS,

Nobody will change anything unless you as us to (Y) 

perhaps you should have a standard letter to send out to interference sources interfering with service delivery to your customers ?

I'm afraid that we have no right to send correspondence out to anybody who is not a customer - but I get where you are coming from here. 

I will wait until the end of the month then ask the guy what progress is being made in consultation with his electrician, if I get a bad response I will take the matter up with trading standards and/or possibly the electricity supply authority.

I really wish there was more we could do here for you - please let us know what becomes of this. 

Kind Regards, 

MoR

[#11]

With the long history of issues on this account, all of the historical work carried out to make this line as good as it can be … an a performance issue still prevails, cannot a REIN case be raised WITHOUT going through a new nugatory basic instigation and problem elimination?

With the evidence gathered, it ought not to be overly challenging to have BTOR confirm that this is indeed a REIN issues.  Whilst BTOR might not have the power to force rectification, the weight of a visit from "the authorities" might be just the difference required to get this unhelpful gent to correct his power installation.

Goodness, with all the effort BTOR have already put into this case, it might have been cheaper for them to have replaced the spray shop lights for him!

[#12]

Hi @Townman 

We can't arrange a REIN engineer without an SFI being sent first, and we are unable to book out an SFI without OP agreeing to the engineer statement which we send all customers. 

As you can see from OPs latest post, he does not wish to go down that route as of yet 

I will wait until the end of the month then ask the guy what progress is being made in consultation with his electrician, if I get a bad response I will take the matter up with trading standards and/or possibly the electricity supply authority.

Should this change, the link provided previously can be used to raise the fault and being this process. 

Thanks, 

MoR

[#13]

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@MasterOfReality wrote:

Hi @Townman 

We can't arrange a REIN engineer without an SFI being sent first, and we are unable to book out an SFI without OP agreeing to the engineer statement which we send all customers. 

As you can see from OPs latest post, he does not wish to go down that route as of yet 

Given the distinct possibility of being charged £65 or whatever it is, I'm not surprised!

Essentially, the situation is simple: the OP is paying Plusnet for a service that has been substandard for several years. It therefore behoves Plusnet to attempt to remedy the problem.

The fact that their only recourse is to engage the services of the inefficient, rule-bound, box-ticking BTOR is their problem, not the customer's. If, as I said before, and as @Townman  also mentioned, BTOR eventually end up at the workshop with the dodgy lights, there is a reasonable chance that the owner would comply when faced with an "official" investigation.

There is ample evidence that the interference exists, that it affects not only the OP (Replies #2 and #3), and that it plainly is not due to anything within the customer's premises, so how can there be a charge to the customer?

At the very least, Plusnet should assure @hitchhiker43  that he will NOT be charged should he wish to raise a fault, whatever the results of any action, or non-action, by BTOR.

[#14]

To properly comment I think it's worth getting an overview from the OP on the circuit itself.  I think the only property that's been shared is the noise margin in the first post.  I would be interested to know the line length and/or attenuation, and the sync speed.  Also when REIN strikes what sort of error rate is seen, and what sort of error rate when REIN is not present.

[#15]

Hello again, the line is quite long, the Downstream & Upstream attenuation being 54 & 31dB.

The sync speed varies according to the available snr at the time of resync but is typically 5-6Mbps, my neighbors who have not carried out any work report 1.5Mbps!

The FEC error rates likewise vary according to snr and are at a minimum of 300/minute just after a resynch and during REIN usually exceed the DSLSTATS reporting limit of 10K/min

As I speak snr is ~2.6dB, synch 6382Bps & FEC ~1500/min, this good performance is mainly due to me resynching the line yesterday to recover the lost tones.

As I do not monitor the line continuously I am not aware of any REIN events since the last I recorded 22/04 however I know when they have happened historically due to the lost tones and consequent reduction in snr since the last re-synch. Indeed I can see some tones have been lost since yesterday morning already and the snr has dropped about 0.3dB accordingly.

I would say going by my line the workshop lights have not been used anywhere near as heavily since I complained. I do not intend to revisit this person unless I have a specific in progress REIN event to complain about!

PS I should mention the DLM is locked at 6dB, prior to this stability was an impossible dream! I then spoof the SNR by the largest amount that allows me to avoid line drops under the worst REIN situation, thus currently I spoof by ~3dB giving me a synch snr of ~3dB.