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Upgrading to Technicolor TG582n has downgraded speed?

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Grafter
Posts: 103
Registered: ‎03-02-2011

Re: Upgrading to Technicolor TG582n has downgraded speed?

Quote from: Bob
I did request the change. Whether it's worked, or was applied and has since been reverted by BT Wholesale's DLM systems I don't know.
For good measure I've requested the change again,

Thanks Bob. This time it appears the router re-connected itself about 6 hours ago, SNR at 3.1, sync at 9,171, which is about the same as the SpeedTouch settled at since switching to ADSL2+ (and is about 800 higher than ever before with the TG582n).  BT says my IP Profile is now 8.09 Mbps. Downloads are still only 6 Mbps, presumably because my Line Speed is still at 7.3. I guess that should automatically creep up to match shortly (but please give it a kick if it hasn't by the time you read this?)
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although I'm not convinced it's necessarily the best thing to do. Your line is definitely disconnecting on occasion:
Session Started	Session Ended	Session Duration
03:58 26/Nov/2012 N/A   10:54:19 (on going)
05:09 25/Nov/2012 03:55 26/Nov/2012   22:46:29
[...]
11:15 24/Nov/2012 03:54 25/Nov/2012   16:39:37


Ah, I think that was me, refreshing the IP to finagle a download site.
Quote
CRC and HEC errors are bad too. The lack of FEC errors also suggests interleaving's switched off on your line. I'd suggest we switch it on but that will lower your sync speed a little too which I guess is what you're trying to avoid? As you're significantly above the magic ~4Mbps required for HD streaming, I'd be happy with stability over weaning the extra yard or two out of the sync speed. Different chipsets in the routers might help explain why one seems faster than the other although AFAIK both the Speedtouch and the Thomson should be using a Broadcom chipset.

It's not so much wanting the extra yard, but fretting over a lost yard. Since joining ADSL2+ I had been getting higher speeds, with no noticeable instability or other drawbacks, until the TG582n arrived (though the root cause sounds like it was the circumstances surrounding a week of router/modem shuffling, in particular that SNR change, rather than the TG582n itself). I've just been trying to get back what I'd become used to.
Anyway, let's see if this uplift sticks, and whether there are any significant drawbacks. Are CRC and HEC errors, and interleaving, something I should be concerned about, if things seem fine? (I know that question seems redundant, but I didn't know I was missing out on Marmite, until someone made me try it: now I can't imagine life without it ... ).
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Grafter
Posts: 103
Registered: ‎03-02-2011

Re: Upgrading to Technicolor TG582n has downgraded speed?

Quote from: Anotherone
As Bob has said Target SNRM changes don't always take and sometimes have to be repeated, whether it's worked this time remains to be seen.
You should not need to reboot, in fact a note of caution, repetitive rebooting will be seen by the exchange DLM as a dropping connection and that may cause the Target SNRM to be raised or the sync speed banded. As would high error rates.

Thanks Anotherone. It looks like it didn't take, but now has. I knew about over-rebooting, but presumed I was spacing them out enough (and thanks to your detailed guide below, it seems I was okay).
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Whilst I appreciate that you had already posted some stats etc. conditions do/can change with time and the reason for asking for current stats is to see which of the stats has changed. As the 582n stats that you posted initially don't state the uptime one can't make any deductions about errors, except that perhaps they aren't unduly high otherwise DLM would have turned on Interleaving automatically. This is also indicated in the latest stats.

Ah, sorry, I didn't twig that the uptime was important to the interpretation of the errors. D'oh.
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You've mentioned there is no bell wire, so if you check the wiring at the rear of your master socket and the two extension sockets, you should find that you only have wires connected to terminals 2 & 5 throughout. The wiring colours should be Blue+white trace on 2 and White+blue trace on 5. You should also not be using any plug-in extension leads, if so please say where and between what  items.

The wiring is exactly as you describe between a old-style junction box (looks like this, though with only the blue+white and white+blue wires) and a 'master' box like this. But from there it uses a splitter which branches into 1) microfilter then phone, and 2) extension lead to microfilter then router and phone. Essentially like this (but with only two phones).
In the past I've tried removing the splitter (and therefore one phone+microfilter), for weeks, with no noticeable effect at all. But I haven't tried hard-wiring the extension into the 'master' box instead of plugging it in. Are plugs bad?
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But before you do that, you need to be careful that disturbing the sockets doesn't cause a drop of sync. Also we need to address all the session drops that Bob has highlighted in the early hours of the 25th and one on the 26th. If that was you doing things such as dropping your PPP Internet session via the modem/router interface (ie clicking Disconnect and then Connect - in the Internet box) so that you Gateway hopped then OK

Indeed, I was doing exactly that, to get new IPs.
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if however you were rebooting, or not doing anything at all there would almost certainly have been a loss of sync as well session drop. That number, in that space of time would normally be sufficient for DLM to raise the Target Noise Margin or Band the sync speed or both!
So, in future, if you want to reboot including changing modem/router settings, or swap anything about - filters,sockets leads etc., the safest way is to drop the PPP Internet session by clicking Disconnect, pausing, then powering down the modem/router and waiting a few minutes before disconnecting from the line. Do what ever you need or want to do, change modem/router settings off-line etc and take at least 10 minutes before reconnecting to the line, and don't do it more than about 5 times in an hour and then leave it for the rest of the day.

Got it, thanks :).
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Once you've resynced, you may need to click Connect to establish a new PPP session. I'd also suggest that you do it in daylight hours rather than after dark.
So post back about the wiring and any information about the session drops, and we might be able to offer further advice.

I'm sure you're right, though that daylight thing seems counter-intuitive (busy time, more machinery and electronics working, etc) - any idea why that should be?
Meanwhile, things seem to be heading in the right direction :-

DSL Connection
Uptime: 0 days, 6:01:16
DSL Type: ITU-T G.992.5
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 443 / 9.171
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/MB]: 45,14 / 438,31
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12,6 / 0,0
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 17,5 / 35,5
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 26,9 / 3,1
System Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / ----
Chipset Vendor ID (Local/Remote): BDCM / IFTN
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 9 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 1 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): -
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 9.431 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 0
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 7.413
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 5.039

1. Best Effort Test
Download speedachieved during the test was - 6.16 Mbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 2 Mbps-7.15 Mbps.
IP Profile for your line is - 8.09 Mbps
2. Upstream Test:
Upload speed achieved during the test was - 0.25Mbps
Additional Information:
Upstream Rate IP profile on your line is - 0.45 Mbps

Current line speed: 7.3 Mb
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Community Veteran
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Registered: ‎31-08-2007

Re: Upgrading to Technicolor TG582n has downgraded speed?

Thanks for the detailed reply, all the required information to get to the crux of matters.
Glad all the session drops were you, and you're aware of the best methods for disconnecting etc.
The reason Daylight is usually better (an hour after sunrise to an hour before sunset) is because the majority of the interference comes from MW radio propagation which is far greater after dark. Sometimes there is some from street and other discharge lighting, TV sets and all sorts of devices with switch mode power supplies.
So, to the bits that need to be addressed.
Quote from: mplusnetuser
The wiring is exactly as you describe between a old-style junction box (looks like this, though with only the blue+white and white+blue wires) and a 'master' box like this. But from there it uses a splitter which branches into 1) microfilter then phone, and 2) extension lead to microfilter then router and phone. Essentially like this (but with only two phones).
In the past I've tried removing the splitter (and therefore one phone+microfilter), for weeks, with no noticeable effect at all. But I haven't tried hard-wiring the extension into the 'master' box instead of plugging it in. Are plugs bad?

What colour are the two wires on the incoming BT cable to that old style junction box ?
Plugs per se aren't bad it's the
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2) extension lead to microfilter then router and phone.

that's potentially the big problem if it's a standard extension lead particularly when plugged into a master socket as it won't be twisted pair and it will contain a bell wire. So before making the best suggestions, how long is it and how long is the modem.router lead?
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Grafter
Posts: 103
Registered: ‎03-02-2011

Re: Upgrading to Technicolor TG582n has downgraded speed?

Quote from: Anotherone
What colour are the two wires on the incoming BT cable to that old style junction box ?

Also blue+white and white+blue (plus a bunch of white and green and orange, but those aren't connected to anything).
Quote
Plugs per se aren't bad it's the "2) extension lead to microfilter then router and phone" that's potentially the big problem if it's a standard extension lead particularly when plugged into a master socket as it won't be twisted pair and it will contain a bell wire. So before making the best suggestions, how long is it and how long is the modem.router lead?

Oh. The extension lead is much more modern than the junction box, if that makes any difference: it's still white, rather than yellowed ;). I guess it's 10 or 15 meters long. It's path is buried behind cupboards and under carpets and would be a pain to replace. But I suppose I could temporarily connect something (?) better from the junction box to the router lead+microfilter, to see if it made a difference big enough to plumb in permanently. The router lead is just what came with it, and I guess is about 6 foot.
Thanks for the help :).
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Registered: ‎31-08-2007

Re: Upgrading to Technicolor TG582n has downgraded speed?

Ha, ok, some more questions first then - the extension lead - is it round or flat cross-section, and how is the socket end terminated - is a moulded job onto the cable, or is it a standard style socket that could be opened to look at the wiring and terminals - if so, tell us colours to which terminals.
Is it a secondary or master socket that the extension is plugged into?
The incoming cable - can you follow that back to see what wires are connected to what and in what sort of box?
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Grafter
Posts: 103
Registered: ‎03-02-2011

Re: Upgrading to Technicolor TG582n has downgraded speed?

Quote from: Anotherone
Ha, ok, some more questions first then - the extension lead - is it round or flat cross-section, and how is the socket end terminated - is a moulded job onto the cable, or is it a standard style socket that could be opened to look at the wiring and terminals - if so, tell us colours to which terminals.

Thanks again! It's flat, with a socket which looks like it might be pried open, but possibly not put back together again. It looks exactly like this one
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Is it a secondary or master socket that the extension is plugged into?

I had to google to find the difference (masters have a ringing capacitor and surge arrester?), but I still don't know which it is. I'd have to disassemble a cupboard (again) to open it up. It's the only other box after the junction box, so presumably a master?
If I must have something between the junction box and the router (and I'm now guessing I must?), I'd rather put a new one in than fiddle with the one behind the cupboard (and I don't care that BT owns it).
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The incoming cable - can you follow that back to see what wires are connected to what and in what sort of box?

Er, incoming to where? The junction box? No, the wire disappears outwards near the front door: I can't see any other box at all. Where might it be? I'd assumed its next stop was under the street.
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Re: Upgrading to Technicolor TG582n has downgraded speed?

Quote from: mplusnetuser
I had to google to find the difference (masters have a ringing capacitor and surge arrester?), but I still don't know which it is. I'd have to disassemble a cupboard (again) to open it up. It's the only other box after the junction box, so presumably a master?

Ah, I'm getting the picture now Grin  I understood from the way you'd phrased an earlier comment that you had another socket. So no need to pull either apart in the circumstances, or the cupboard  Roll_eyes   The fact that the extension lead is flat and plugged into the master means it's NBG.
Quote from: mplusnetuser
Er, incoming to where? The junction box? No, the wire disappears outwards near the front door: I can't see any other box at all. Where might it be? I'd assumed its next stop was under the street.

Nope, that type of cable won't be going underground. There will likely be a grey connection box outside somewhere, possibly on a neighbour's wall as you may share a box. Your cable running round a wall to it. I was wanting to check that you didn't have an External NTE, it looks like this inside.  A grey connection box is smaller than that, and is slightly wedge shape called a BT66B.
So really, is this socket in/behind the cupboard actually redundant, other than you having your extension plugged into it?
Is there a cable route from the junction box to a suitable location next to the modem/router that doesn't go under carpets and the like?
Is the location of the junction box somewhere it could easily be replaced with an NTE5a Master Socket at some future date, the box size is ~ 86x86mm square (same as a standard single light switch)?
If you had another fixed socket near your modem/router, which would be the preferred size 86x86mm or 68x68mm ?
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Grafter
Posts: 103
Registered: ‎03-02-2011

Re: Upgrading to Technicolor TG582n has downgraded speed?

Quote from: Anotherone
Nope, that type of cable won't be going underground. There will likely be a grey connection box outside somewhere, possibly on a neighbour's wall as you may share a box. Your cable running round a wall to it. I was wanting to check that you didn't have an External NTE, it looks like this inside.  A grey connection box is smaller than that, and is slightly wedge shape called a BT66B.

Okay, thanks again. Now knowing it must be somewhere, I found it behind some shrubs and ivy: it's certainly not an NTE, and I guess pre-dates the wedge one too. It looks a bit like this one. The screw fastener is rusted tight, and I didn't risk forcing it open to look inside. I'll tackle the other questions in bites.
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So really, is this socket in/behind the cupboard actually redundant, other than you having your extension plugged into it?

More redundant than I thought: it has also had a splitter leading to a microfilter and a phone, but it turns out I never reconnected that splitter+filter+phone from previous experiments. So yes, redundant apart from being a socket for the extension lead.
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Is there a cable route from the junction box to a suitable location next to the modem/router that doesn't go under carpets and the like?

Not permanently, but I'd go to the trouble if it turned out to be worth it.
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Is the location of the junction box somewhere it could easily be replaced with an NTE5a Master Socket at some future date, the box size is ~ 86x86mm square (same as a standard single light switch)?

Yep.
Quote
If you had another fixed socket near your modem/router, which would be the preferred size 86x86mm or 68x68mm ?

I could manage with either, though if they perform the same, the smaller would be easier.
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Re: Upgrading to Technicolor TG582n has downgraded speed?

Quote from: mplusnetuser
Thanks Bob. This time it appears the router re-connected itself about 6 hours ago, SNR at 3.1, sync at 9,171, which is about the same as the SpeedTouch settled at since switching to ADSL2+ (and is about 800 higher than ever before with the TG582n).  BT says my IP Profile is now 8.09 Mbps. Downloads are still only 6 Mbps, presumably because my Line Speed is still at 7.3. I guess that should automatically creep up to match shortly (but please give it a kick if it hasn't by the time you read this?)

I've just changed the profile this side to 8.1Mbps. It may initiate a PPP disconnect/reconnect.
Quote from: mplusnetuser
Are CRC and HEC errors, and interleaving, something I should be concerned about, if things seem fine?

Nope. If you're happy with the way the connection's performing then I'd not fret too much about it.

Bob Pullen
Plusnet Product Team
If I've been helpful then please give thanks ⤵

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Re: Upgrading to Technicolor TG582n has downgraded speed?

Your title says it all. Yes the TG582n has probably downgraded your speed by a small amount.
All routers seem to connect with a slight variation in the line attenuation.
On my line a 516 and a 585 v8 both connect with a line actuation figure of 38.5-39.0
While a 585 v7 and a TG582n both connect with a line actuation figure of 39.5-40.0
That small difference means that I always connect at a higher speed using my old 585 v8, or my even older 516.
I would suggest that the very small difference you initially found .300 - .500 is solely down to this router "difference".


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Grafter
Posts: 103
Registered: ‎03-02-2011

Re: Upgrading to Technicolor TG582n has downgraded speed?

Thanks for the info and data, billnotben.
Quote from: Bob
Quote from: mplusnetuser
SNR at 3.1, sync at 9,171, which is about the same as the SpeedTouch settled at since switching to ADSL2+ (and is about 800 higher than ever before with the TG582n).  BT says my IP Profile is now 8.09 Mbps. Downloads are still only 6 Mbps, presumably because my Line Speed is still at 7.3. I guess that should automatically creep up to match shortly (but please give it a kick if it hasn't by the time you read this?)

I've just changed the profile this side to 8.1Mbps. It may initiate a PPP disconnect/reconnect.

Thanks Bob. I did indeed get a PPP reconnect about 9 hours ago, and it's now showing as 8.1Mbps. My IP Profile is still 8.09Mbps and I'm still synced at 9,171kbps.
But ... downloads are still stuck at 6Mbps (as confirmed by both BT and other reliably fast dowloads). Argh!
Why on earth should that be?
Here are the stats, in case they help :-

DSL Connection
Uptime: 2 days, 3:30:38
DSL Type: ITU-T G.992.5
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 443 / 9.171
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/MB]: 93,45 / 977,04
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12,6 / 0,0
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 17,5 / 35,5
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 27,5 / 2,9
System Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / ----
Chipset Vendor ID (Local/Remote): BDCM / IFTN
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 9 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 6 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): -
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 25.302 / 1
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 0
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 35 / 142.392
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 105 / 72.667


1. Best Effort Test:
Download speed achieved during the test was - 5.99 Mbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 2 Mbps-7.15 Mbps.
IP Profile for your line is - 8.09 Mbps
2. Upstream Test:
Upload speed achieved during the test was - 0.28Mbps
Additional Information:
Upstream Rate IP profile on your line is - 0.45 Mbps
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Grafter
Posts: 103
Registered: ‎03-02-2011

Re: Upgrading to Technicolor TG582n has downgraded speed?

Hmm. I just suddenly lost PPP connection, and hitting the router Connect button would only produce: "Connection could not be established: Could not bring up link". It may have been due to this "Planned router maintenance - Thursday 29th November Midnight-5:00am", but if so despite "All users connected to the gateway known as PCL-AG08 will be briefly disconnected from the internet. Those disconnected should be able to reconnect almost immediately", it stubbornly refused to reconnect. So I turned the router off for 20 minutes and all was well.
Better, in fact, as both my sync speed and IP Profile increased by 0.4Mbps! :-
DSL Connection	
Uptime: 0 days, 0:06:41
DSL Type: ITU-T G.992.5
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 443 / 9.575
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [kB/MB]: 995,61 / 28,88
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12,7 / 0,0
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 17,5 / 35,0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 25,4 / 2,9
System Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / ----
Chipset Vendor ID (Local/Remote): BDCM / IFTN
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): -
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 23 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 0
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 24
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 11

1. Best Effort Test:
Download speedachieved during the test was - 5.83 Mbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 4 Mbps-21 Mbps.
IP Profile for your line is - 8.45 Mbps
2. Upstream Test:
Upload speed achieved during the test was - 0.12Mbps
Additional Information:
Upstream Rate IP profile on your line is - 0.45 Mbps

But downloads are still stuck at 6Mbps or less Sad
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Re: Upgrading to Technicolor TG582n has downgraded speed?

Quote from: mplusnetuser
But downloads are still stuck at 6Mbps or less Sad

I'm afraid this isn't big news; it's almost certainly just the inability of your ISP to track the BT IP Profile with its own speed throttle.  Have a look here https://portal.plus.net/my.html?action=data_transfer_speed. ; What is shown as 'Current Line Speed' is the throttle Plusnet is applying.  It will catch-up eventually, probably.   
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Re: Upgrading to Technicolor TG582n has downgraded speed?

Roll_eyes Some misleading information here in a couple of recent posts
1) Different modem/routers calculate Line Attenuation with slightly different Algorithms. The same modem/router will give different figures for ADSL & ADSL2+, and in a nutshell, this is all to do with the bits/tone allocations available, and it is not of any significant consequence to performance!
2)
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Thanks Bob. I did indeed get a PPP reconnect about 9 hours ago, and it's now showing as 8.1Mbps. My IP Profile is still 8.09Mbps

You are already aware of Plusnet's profile being updated, RR's remark about "it's own speed throttle" is grossly misleading to end users. It is a PROFILE and it's purpose is to prevent too much data being send to the EU's line which it can't handle, where data would be dropped at random by the exchange totally defeating the whole point of traffic management where the high priority traffic like VoIP, Web browsing & Streaming would be the last thing to see any drops except in extreme congestion circumstances.  The problem of the Current Line Speed not updating in a timely manner is not because of any problem  at PN but because the Delta Reports that BTw systems are supposed to send when the profile changes, are not happening in a timely manner. This is BTw's issue.
The sooner RR understands that and stops using misleading phraseology the better
Try this http://speedtest.btwholesale.com/ test instead, as it requires Flash instead of JRE and isn't as pessimistic. I also suggest you run the tests via Ethernet connection in case there is some limitation from your wireless connection.
Back to wiring,  you will need some 2 pair CW1308 cable, some 3.5mm cable clips and a Disposable IDC tool from the tools page.
I wouldn't recommend buying the cable anywhere except from a reliable source, there is fake standard CW1308 about, I'll send you a PM.
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Re: Upgrading to Technicolor TG582n has downgraded speed?

Quote from: ReedRichards
Quote from: mplusnetuser
But downloads are still stuck at 6Mbps or less Sad

I'm afraid this isn't big news; it's almost certainly just the inability of your ISP to track the BT IP Profile with its own speed throttle.  Have a look here https://portal.plus.net/my.html?action=data_transfer_speed. ; What is shown as 'Current Line Speed' is the throttle Plusnet is applying.  It will catch-up eventually, probably.   

As Anotherone has explained this isn't true. Your profile this side is fine. I've just upped it to 8.5Mbps to accommodate the recent IP Profile increase too.
Date	BT Product	Speed	Contention	Speed	Profile
2012-11-29 09:39:10 WBC MAX24 mb/s (ADSL2+ Annex A) 448kbit/s Upstream 24000 8500 Generic Speed 8500 No Time Out
2012-11-29 04:35:37 WBC MAX24 mb/s (ADSL2+ Annex A) 448kbit/s Upstream 24000 8000 Generic Speed 8000 No Time Out
2012-11-28 15:33:13 WBC MAX24 mb/s (ADSL2+ Annex A) 448kbit/s Upstream 24000 8100 Generic Speed 8100 No Time Out
2012-11-24 04:45:28 WBC MAX24 mb/s (ADSL2+ Annex A) 448kbit/s Upstream 24000 7300 Generic Speed 7300 No Time Out

I'll run a test on your line to see if anything's stuck BT's side ...

Bob Pullen
Plusnet Product Team
If I've been helpful then please give thanks ⤵