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Speed drop after moving to Plusnet from Sky

w23
Pro
Posts: 6,347
Thanks: 96
Fixes: 4
Registered: ‎08-01-2008

Re: Speed drop after moving to Plusnet from Sky

Is it just Skype that keeps dropping and freezing or other things too?
If your connection is in any way unstable that is different from simply low speed.
Unfortunately it takes a while to build up useful info but monitoring with Routerstats could prove helpful: http://www.vwlowen.co.uk/internet/files.htm
Call me 'w23'
At any given moment in the universe many things happen. Coincidence is a matter of how close these events are in space, time and relationship.
Opinions expressed in forum posts are those of the poster, others may have different views.
tony8436
Grafter
Posts: 196
Registered: ‎16-12-2010

Re: Speed drop after moving to Plusnet from Sky

Not just Skype but that is the program that is important. Yesterday it too 1 1/2 hours to stream a 42 minute youtube clip. I also can't stream from showbox.
Kremmen
Aspiring Pro
Posts: 559
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Registered: ‎13-04-2013

Re: Speed drop after moving to Plusnet from Sky

I haven't been through all the posts but I would check your exchange details. Sky at my exchange is LLU and your previous connection may have been the same. My experience with LLU is that is doesn't have the same issues that BT's 21CN with DLM does so your speeds may suffer.
When I was with O2 on LLU I was getting circa 6.5Mbps but my PN speed on ADSL was 5Mbps max. And, under LLU I used to turn my router off overnight. I'll bet that your circa 2Mbps means you have a slow line anyway and it's being punished by DLM.
For me, at the time 5Mbps was fine as the customer support here is far better than Sky and why I switched when O2 tried to sell me to Sky.
Let's be careful out there !
tony8436
Grafter
Posts: 196
Registered: ‎16-12-2010

Re: Speed drop after moving to Plusnet from Sky

I have been told that it is LLU (whatever that means). However, during the sales call, I was told that I should get the same speed as I did with Sky. Sky customer services were a lot better than PN, the only reason I moved was because I had come to the end of my contract and they don't offer any existing customer deals. If I had dropped from 6.5 to 5, I could live with that as it is still a usable connection speed, but >2 Mbps is not.
Kremmen
Aspiring Pro
Posts: 559
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Registered: ‎13-04-2013

Re: Speed drop after moving to Plusnet from Sky

I'd be surprised if PN is LLU but I could be wrong. Check the SamKnows site for your exchange. If it is 20CN or 21CN enabled then I would again guess that this will be your connection type as PN use the BT infrastructure.
Wait for confirmation though.
Does your exchange do fibre? My fibre speed is only 17Mbps instead of the 80Mbps some enjoy but the additional cost for 5 to 17 was well wort it. Maybe worth investigating.
Let's be careful out there !
tony8436
Grafter
Posts: 196
Registered: ‎16-12-2010

Re: Speed drop after moving to Plusnet from Sky

My exchange is fibre but my cabinet is not. Openreach have said it is not viable as we are so far away. Might have helped if they had connected us to one of the two nearer exchanges.  PN is not LLU but Sky is. I am on the hollinswood exchange WNHLN.
Kremmen
Aspiring Pro
Posts: 559
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Registered: ‎13-04-2013

Re: Speed drop after moving to Plusnet from Sky

That'll be your issue then. BT's DLM is cutting you down.
When I first started ADSL with PN I did initially get 6.5, just like LLU, but during the training period I was cut back. PN can raise the profile but again, in my experience, it will be cut down again within days. As good as PN support is they are fighting BT DLM. My fibre started out at almost 20Mbps but was cut back to 17 during training.
Let's be careful out there !
tony8436
Grafter
Posts: 196
Registered: ‎16-12-2010

Re: Speed drop after moving to Plusnet from Sky

Customer support have told me that I am on a 2.4 Mbps profile and they can't raise it. From what some people on here have said, it could have been Tech support telling me to reboot the router that has caused the issue, but unfortunately, that seems to bee all they know.
Kremmen
Aspiring Pro
Posts: 559
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Registered: ‎13-04-2013

Re: Speed drop after moving to Plusnet from Sky

Yes, that 2.4 will be all that PN can do based on the router sync speed which is DLM controlled. These 21CN caps are annoying. Hopefully a bit more info based on my experience though Smiley
Let's be careful out there !
Mark280
Grafter
Posts: 45
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Registered: ‎14-11-2014

Re: Speed drop after moving to Plusnet from Sky

Entering an average of the various line stats that you have posted (ignoring the very low initial set) into this online calculator suggests that you are actually getting a 'good' connection speed for your particular line...
http://www.coolwebhome.co.uk/calc/index.php?param=RG4gMjU1MCBEbiA2MC44IERuIDYuMSBEbiAx#res
...it also suggests that lowering the target 'SNR margin' from 6dB to 3dB would probably only add about 0.3 Mbps (perhaps bringing you to 2.8~2.9 Mbps) - which, in my opinion, is of questionable value given the potential increased probability of errors, loss of connection etc.
jem16
Grafter
Posts: 874
Registered: ‎27-10-2014

Re: Speed drop after moving to Plusnet from Sky

Quote from: tony8436
I have been told that it is LLU (whatever that means).

PlusNet is not LLU. Sky is LLU. PlusNet uses Btw equipment in the exchange, Sky uses their own equipment in the exchange.
LLU means Local Loop Unbundling

Anotherone
Champion
Posts: 19,107
Thanks: 457
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Registered: ‎31-08-2007

Re: Speed drop after moving to Plusnet from Sky

OK a few comments here on this situation -
1st - STOP rebooting, that will only make matters worse in the present circumstances, they can be seen by DLM as line drops. CSC staff are not trained broadband engineers, few of them understand the technical details of a broadband connection other than the absolute basics, and whilst a reboot is sometimes the cure is a number of circumstances, is depends on the nature and cause of the problem. Some (but not all) CRT staff here on the forum have faults training/knowledge and are better equipped to deal with a number of issues as are the Faults team (rather obviously) when you have a fault raised.
2nd - can we stop comments like -
Quote from: Kremmen
Yes, that 2.4 will be all that PN can do based on the router sync speed which is DLM controlled. These 21CN caps are annoying. Hopefully a bit more info based on my experience though Smiley
Quote from: Kremmen
That'll be your issue then. BT's DLM is cutting you down.

These remarks are unhelpful without further explanation and when out of context, or demonstrate a lack of understanding of how broadband works and whether its BTw's DLM or Sky LLU DLM is not really relevant. There is no 21CN "cap" by default, but what is a fact is, that you CANNOT get a download speed faster than the sync speed of your connection LLU or BTw - that's how broadband works.
As remarked in reply #84, you seem (fundamentally) to have a "good" connection speed for your line.
If your were getting speeds of circa 3Mbps on Sky, that is extremely good for the length of your line based on some of the stats you've been posting.
The speed you can actually get is based on your line attenuation (related to line length - how far you are from the exchange) and any noise/interference that your line gets - that is true whether it's LLU or BTw DLMs. Also just FYI, noise/interference or line faults between the cab and you would seriously affect an FTTC service as well.
It's also worth mentioning, Openreach are responsible for any repair/maintenance of the line between an end user and the exchange, and that is true whichever ISP you are with (except Virgin Media cable) and although Plusnet would be responsible for getting any line fault fixed that an end user may have, they (nor any ISP) have much control over how effectively or efficiently Openreach do this.
Ok, down to a few more specifics.
To check what download speed you can/should be getting at a particular time, there are a number of checks you can do for yourself. The first obviously is your sync/connection speed. This determines your IP Profile which is 88.2% of your sync speed on 21CN. You can also check what your profile ought to be by running the BTw Performance test (DO NOT REBOOT, ignore the red preamble except make sure no other programs are using the Internet, use a wired connection) and at the end of the first run, click the Further Diagnostics button, enter just your Phone number and Run the Further Diagnostics Test. You can do a Copy and Paste of the results if you want to post here (no need to grab an image).
The IP profile is forwarded by BT servers to Plusnet's system to update your Current Line speed (Login required). Unfortunately the updates (especially when it's a small change) don't always get sent and come through the system in a timely manner.
There is something odd about the stats themselves - I don't know what modem/router it is, so it's unclear what is actually going on.
The stats posted in the OP and reply #2 are showing major inconsistency.  Those posted in reply #2 nearly an hour after the OP, showed an increase in connection time of 59 seconds and yet a different sync speed, increased attenuation and less CRC errors!
After the line test on the 23rd, the (smallish) decrease in sync speed after a Daytime Disconnect and Reboot on the 24th, along with Chris's comments about SNRM variations (reply #9) Min 2dB Max 7db suggest some significant interference/noise issues, especially looking at the stats in the OP as well, or some intermittent fault.
Also as the Reset Chris mentioned doesn't seem to have happened, if you hadn't been connected to Plusnet for 10 days at the time, the line would still be in Training, and a Reset would have failed.
If there is any problem with the phone line, this will affect the broadband. BTw DLM can be aggressive in these circumstances, especially repeated drops in connection. So this is the first thing to keep an ear on!
Can you hear/have you heard any crackling or other noises on the line when using the phone? Have you had any problems with incoming or outgoing calls? Also use the Quiet Line Test 17070 Option 2. If there's an intermittent problem, you may need to be a bit OCD with this!
It was also suggested earlier that you could run RouterStats or RouterStatsLite if it becomes necessary to monitor SNRM variations.
georgim
Newbie
Posts: 3
Registered: ‎26-01-2015

Re: Speed drop after moving to Plusnet from Sky

Quote from: Anotherone
2nd - can we stop comments like -
Quote from: Kremmen
Yes, that 2.4 will be all that PN can do based on the router sync speed which is DLM controlled. These 21CN caps are annoying. Hopefully a bit more info based on my experience though Smiley
Quote from: Kremmen
That'll be your issue then. BT's DLM is cutting you down.

These remarks are unhelpful without further explanation and when out of context, or demonstrate a lack of understanding of how broadband works and whether its BTw's DLM or Sky LLU DLM is not really relevant. There is no 21CN "cap" by default, but what is a fact is, that you CANNOT get a download speed faster than the sync speed of your connection LLU or BTw - that's how broadband works.
As remarked in reply #84, you seem (fundamentally) to have a "good" connection speed for your line.
If your were getting speeds of circa 3Mbps on Sky, that is extremely good for the length of your line based on some of the stats you've been posting.
The speed you can actually get is based on your line attenuation (related to line length - how far you are from the exchange) and any noise/interference that your line gets - that is true whether it's LLU or BTw DLMs. Also just FYI, noise/interference or line faults between the cab and you would seriously affect an FTTC service as well.
It's also worth mentioning, Openreach are responsible for any repair/maintenance of the line between an end user and the exchange, and that is true whichever ISP you are with (except Virgin Media cable) and although Plusnet would be responsible for getting any line fault fixed that an end user may have, they (nor any ISP) have much control over how effectively or efficiently Openreach do this.

@Anotherone, I've used service from BT (reliable), Be (fast and reliable), Sky (fast but throttled) and now Plusnet. I've been through an excruciating battle with interference on my line for the last five months and my findings directly contradict your asking to stop comments like "BT's DLM is cutting you down".
I'm on a long line, far from the exchange, (45.5dB attn) that just wouldn't go upwards of 3mbps with BT's DLM in the picture. After replacing the copper, removing the source of interference, and fully resetting all systems, the moment DLM has been at my profile for 5 consecutive days, it still kills the speed, achieving excellent FEC and CRC counts and causing me intense grief as a side product.
I've seen 4mbps for months without disconnection on a same-brand, same-model router, on the same telephone number. Sky and Be were both LLU (Be initially wasn't) and on both I could see millions of FEC errors, but the connection simply stayed up without resync for weeks, actual throughput never being slow or ever an issue. I've seen this line work fine at 3dB SNR, 6dB, all the way up to 15dB and anything in between, for which I have found no correlating nearby factor. I monitor stats down to bitloading info, and I only haven't ventured into per-band-SNR because that's madness. The line syncs equally fine at 4000 (no interleaving 6db snr), 4400 (interleaved 6db snr), both achieving the assigned IP profile throughput of 3.5mbps just fine. Then after a few days of never touching anything, DLM decides on higher SNR: 9db first, then 12db, dropping to 3000kbps for the sake of some theoretically perfect CRC count.
I'm a software specialist, used to work at an ISP, and have studied a sizeable portion of the underlying signal technology in the past. I've gone as far as to question the impact of weather on the electrical resistance of joints in nearby junction boxes.
After keeping a close eye on my line, and an ear out for the radio spectrum in the vicinity, I can reliably point towards DLM and say it's doing too much. Also I will speculate that it makes sense since the 10-day training period (I've done many), is used to establish the FTR - I mean what wholesale provider on Earth wouldn't want that lower from the get go.
So I believe it's more fair to say "The speed you _will_ actually get is based on the speed you can actually get (copper attn vs snr) minus BT's DLM speed drop, determined by the bias of the DLM software."
Kremmen
Aspiring Pro
Posts: 559
Thanks: 15
Fixes: 5
Registered: ‎13-04-2013

Re: Speed drop after moving to Plusnet from Sky

Thanks
I stand by what I posted. If AO remembers he spent quite a bit of time helping me with routerstats because I was trying to find out why my connection speed had slowed from O2 to PN.
My statements were based on fact. If a LLU connection can deliver faster speeds, in my case it was 6.5Mbps, day in day out, and it never missed a beat then the BT methodology has an issue. I've seen quite a few LLU v BT posts here with just the same queries over the short time I've been here. From those posts I've come to accept the slower speeds that are 21CN.
The bottom line for me is that 21CN + PN support still beats the competition Cheesy
Let's be careful out there !
plusnettony
Plusnet Staff
Plusnet Staff
Posts: 2,188
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Registered: ‎24-07-2014

Re: Speed drop after moving to Plusnet from Sky

Just for reference, the we've asked that the upload be uncapped for you. By tomorrow morning you should see an improvement.
If this post resolved your issue please click the 'This fixed my problem' button
 Tony T
 Plusnet Help Team