Please excuse cross posting. Game problem: Router log enclosed

[#1]

Thank ejs. Something for me to look into and see if I can understand it.

[#2]

Any movement on this faults problem?

[#3]

No response first for three days and now for another five since my previous post. I have consistently been polite in expressing my appreciation and thanks for your (and other staff members') assistance. I am puzzled then that I am seemingly being ignored since I refuse to click through to completion on a 'help' script that doesn't apply to me and, as such, be bound by a false agreement in order to get any further assistance or even comment.
I ask again, Chris; any movement on this faults problem?
It is more pertinent now since the problem that affected many customers the other night was fixed; my connection, at least in terms of speed tests, has been the smoothest I've ever seen. The graphs are virtually a constant, straight line. Moreover, the tests are ending without any problem. And these on the pcl gateways. Indeed, my DL speed has even hit 20Mb for the first time since joining PN. Is this to mean that something behind the scenes has been done to fix the problem you told me existed on my line, or is there evidence that it still exists? I really would like to get this eliminated so that I can move on with the problems I've been having for weeks now.

[#4]

Sorry for the delay in response,
We have been working to resolve the network issues we've seen and hopefully we'll see improvements on this.
I've logged a fault on your line and will get some intrusive testing done on it to see what's been the cause.
Glad to see your connection is currently going well though.
Chris

[#5]

Thank you kindly, Chris. I will wait some time to see what happens.

[#6]

[quote=Ticketing response 12/02/13][number  65717941 ]
for further investigation.
The following comment was added to the Question
Dear Mr _______,
After retesting your service the issue appears to be resolved and we can see an ongoing connection as per the connection logs.
The agent seems to harbour under the impression that my connection is dropping, which I have never reported, nor witnessed, as previously discussed in this thread.
[quote=Ticketing response 12/02/13][1*]However it does appear the router is powered off or disconnected over night if this is the case I highly recommend leaving on 24/7 these [1a*]drops even if caused by you will cause problems with your broadband connection. [2*](The last few drops where from my testing)
*My numbering
1. What problems precisely is such disconnecting alleged to cause? I'd like that qualified. I have been assured on this forum and seen many other members similarly assured and advised that is it perfectly ok to disconnect the session through the router web interface and then turn off the router. This is exactly what I do every night, for to leave it on is resource wasteful.
1a. If normal disconnections from the session are referred to and considered by the PN system as 'drops' in the sense of faults, this is a bad setup. The system should be able to differentiate between the two. Anyway, as part of my trying to get my problems sorted I have performed many disconnections to change gateway, as previously mentioned. I hope these are not logged as faults, accounting for the alleged 'more than two' drops a day, because if it is, it has only gone to being a red herring in trying to figure out why I'm having problems with my game.
2. These are the only drops I have witnessed with my router.
[quote=Ticketing response 12/02/13]Unfortunately we see no reason for your previous issues.
Does that mean the agent sees no reason for the errored seconds you have mentioned to me? Or does it mean the agent, thinking I have reported my connection dropping, sees no reason for the connection dropping? In the case of the errored seconds you mention, we have already established the fault is not with my wiring because of the testing I have done in the test socket. Out of interest (I don't know how many errored seconds is a bad amount or even what it means at all) but from today's log, and since the agent disconnected my line about an hour ago, the current errored seconds stands at 110 / 0
[quote=Ticketing response 12/02/13]... it is also possible that while you were testing and moving equipment an issue with your internal wiring or equipment was resolved.
How rage inducing. i.e. 'The problem is yours, not ours. It has to be your equipment/wiring.' The problems continued after testing. That said, if I pause for thought: If, no matter what filter or cable I use to connect to the test socket for hours and days, I still get the same problems, and PN insist their equipment/system/cabling, whatever, is not causing the errored seconds, could this still mean that the PN supplied router (and/or it's wiring/filters) are the cause of these mysterious errored seconds? I still don't even know if these damn errored seconds have anything to do with my original problems from my game thread. Suffice to say that whilst my speed tests are improved and completing as they should, my original gaming problems have worsened.

[#7]

Hi,
I've been through the fault diagnostic results and spoken to the fault agent who dealt with this, the actual errored seconds I previously mention are no longer apparent on your line, you can this this in your ticket response, it's under Downstream DSL Link Information. No Actual fault or anything wrong can initially be found on your line and
We suggest leaving your router on just to ensure maximum performance and also it does help in being able to diagnose any issues that may occur, saying that you are fine to connect/disconnect the way you are doing it.
I'll pass this back to our faults team to specifically concentrate on any errors on the line but as I mentioned they weren't apparent this time round and it would be fairly hard to diagnose what caused them if they're no longer there.

[#8]

Hi Chris, and thank you for your response.

Quote

Under the Downstream DSL Link Information

I'll have to take another look at the ticket to see that. I didn't notice that at all when I first read it.

Quote

We suggest leaving your router on just to ensure maximum performance and also it does help in being able to diagnose any issues that may occur, saying that you are fine to connect/disconnect the way you are doing it.

Thank you for the confirmation of that. I'd still like to know, however, why exactly, to put it the way you have, leaving the router on 'maximises performance' (logically implying not doing so minimises performance, or impedes it, or 'causes problems'). I've heard this said many a time and never once seen it qualified.
I also need to ask again:
Are normal disconnections via the router considered by the PN system as 'drops'?
If all seems clear from the PN end, could the alleged cause of problems, post testing that eliminates other wiring, be the PN supplied router/wiring/filters?
All in all it has to be good that there are no faults apparent to you on the line now (though alas, the problem with speed tests returned for me last night).
Thank you once more for getting this looked at, to the agent for doing it and responding to me, and to you for overseeing it. ... and, I suppose to some degree for my 'further education'!

[#9]

Quote from: Razer

Quote Thank you for the confirmation of that. I'd still like to know, however, why exactly, to put it the way you have, leaving the router on 'maximises performance' (logically implying not doing so minimises performance, or impedes it, or 'causes problems'). I've heard this said many a time and never once seen it qualified. You'll be fine when disconnecting/connecting the way your as the DLM at the exchange that manages your profile will register that you have done it this way so should not have an impact on your performance/line/ As I mentioned though, when it is left switched on 24/7 it can help us locate any faults potentially easier. Quote Are normal disconnections via the router considered by the PN system as 'drops'? If it's not done via the router interface this is classed as a 'drop' although we have the information for both types of disconnections. Quote If all seems clear from the PN end, could the alleged cause of problems, post testing that eliminates other wiring, be the PN supplied router/wiring/filters? We can't rule that out. Quote All in all it has to be good that there are no faults apparent to you on the line now (though alas, the problem with speed tests returned for me last night). This is where a <a href="http://community.plus.net/ping-graphs/">ping graph</a> will come in helpful. Quote Thank you once more for getting this looked at, to the agent for doing it and responding to me, and to you for overseeing it. ... and, I suppose to some degree for my 'further education'! No worries.

[#10]

Quote from: Razer

Thank you for the confirmation of that. I'd still like to know, however, why exactly, to put it the way you have, leaving the router on 'maximises performance' (logically implying not doing so minimises performance, or impedes it, or 'causes problems'). I've heard this said many a time and never once seen it qualified. I also need to ask again: Are normal disconnections via the router considered by the PN system as 'drops'? If all seems clear from the PN end, could the alleged cause of problems, post testing that eliminates other wiring, be the PN supplied router/wiring/filters?

As I understand it, it's actually the continual dropping of the modem (and therefore the connection) that causes the eventual reduction in broadband speed.  However I'm guessing your line is ADSL, so you actually have a router with integral modem.  So when your router resets, or is switched off, it takes the modem with it.
But now I've moved to fibre I have two separate pieces of equipment, a router (essentially a cable router) and a fibre modem. I've since found I can switch the router off and on as many times as I like and it makes no difference to my line speeds...so long as my fibre modem stays on.  Thus in my case, having separate equipment, if I was noticing firewall errors in my logs I would not suspect the broadband connection for a second. However if I saw modem disconnections then I'd probably disregard the router. 
It is worth keeping in mind with ADSL that the same applies - you have a modem that initiates the connection, and then a router that "routes" the traffic to your internal LAN (or single PC) - it's just that in your case they're both in the same physical box.  A box we should really call "modem/router" but we all lazily just call "router".  In your situation your connection problems could have been due to the "modem" part of your router, rather than the "router" part of your router...if you see what I mean.  If this was the case, then firewall issues may have had nothing to do with it, as I mention in my previous paragraph.
-Dave

[#11]

Chris, thanks for your response. That's all clear to me, ta. Can't do a ping graph, I'm dynamic IP. So annoying because from what I've seen of ping graphs they would go a long way to identifying problems more specifically. I wish PN themselves could implement this monitoring that TBB can do. Seems strange that they can't do such a thing on their own network that an outside agent can.
Dave, thanks for that, too. That's very interesting and makes me see possibilities. So it's possible that the modem part of my router could have been responsible for alleged 'at least twice a day' dropouts that I've had absolutely no awareness of and which have not been indicated by the router lights or log. I have, up until last disconnection by the PN agent for testing yesterday, had no general speed reductions in my downstream, however. Or, at the least, my router has consistently synchronised at around 23000 odd or 22000 odd kbps down (post testing it's synchronising at around 21000 odd kbps); though I have had problems with speed test delays in upload and ending of tests, which briefly cleared up from Sunday when something was done about problems for a number of customers caused by some PN equipment 'overloading' and slowing things down. Perhaps coincidental, however, as these have now returned.
I think I'll be continuing with the use of my head bashing spot on the wall for a while yet. Still, I should have a nice, big deformity on my forehead by the end of it and people will know; Oh, look, there's someone with technical problems.

[#12]

Quote from: lorisarvendu

...  A box we should really call "modem/router" but we all lazily just call "router".

I object to that slur.  

Quote from: Razer

... Can't do a ping graph, I'm dynamic IP.

You can... I have, but if the Plusnet session restarts (as per the gateway change suggestions - with/without a modem retrain) you will get a new IP address and the later ping data will then be for someone else  

[#13]

Quote

As I understand it, it's actually the continual dropping of the modem (and therefore the connection) that causes the eventual reduction in broadband speed.  However I'm guessing your line is ADSL, so you actually have a router with integral modem.  So when your router resets, or is switched off, it takes the modem with it.

That's absolutely right yes.

Quote

That's all clear to me, ta. Can't do a ping graph, I'm dynamic IP

That shouldn't stop you from being able to do that. Give it a go and let us know how you get on.

[#14]

Hi there,
I can see that our faults team have updated your ticket and have requested a constant connection of 48 hours so we can look at your line further.

[#15]

Hi Adam,
Well the TBB website says you need to have a static IP. I'll look into it again to see if I can get something going, though I haven't got a clue what I'm doing so can't guarantee that I can figure it out. We'll see.
Hi Chris,
Yes, I had a conversation yesterday in which I got contrary advice to what I've got here, with an insistence that what I've been told about powering down my router and gateway hopping is wrong and I can't rely on that advice because you people are "not faults trained". Of course, I don't buy it at all, but I did suggest that the two separate sets of staff should confer to agree on what customers are advised. Makes me wonder if all those gate hoppers currently being told to regularly try to get off the PCN servers are getting it in the neck from other staff on the phone. Anyway, I must quote part of the synoptic email I received after that phone call.

Quote

As per our conversation, I am seeing alot of disconnection on our line which you have advised is the router being disconnected either when not in use or to gateway hop. You have been advised by our digital care team that this is OK to do and  will not cause problems. Looking at the amount of times that this is being done I think that is incorrect.

What I have said is that I disconnect the router at night and then power down, as I've said a few times on this forum. I do that every night and in the day if I am not going to be using my computer for a time (like if I go out shopping, for example). I also said that I have been gateway hopping as per advice given on this forum (in the spikes/latency thread) for so many people experiencing certain problems with their connections because I know there are problems with new equipment you have. What I haven't said is that all of the disconnections noted by PN are due to this because I do not know what disconnections they have logged (nor have I logged them myself). I have previously taken issue, as you know, with the phrase 'line dropping'. I just hope that the PN system isn't also set up to alert 'something wrong' and make adjustments, when people hop gateway. That'd be bad news for others currently doing so.
What I will clarify now, is the reason for my gateway hopping and why I'm having to do it so often. The problems I have reported with my game may occur as soon as I run the game, in which case I will gateway hop straight away. This sometimes seems to fix the problem for a short time, depending I think upon which gateway I subsequently get on. It could be ten minutes, it could be twenty, it could be half an hour or an hour. Then they return, so I gateway hop again, whereupon the problems are dependently fixed yet again ... only to return at any random time interval. So, the only temporary cure I am getting is the gateway hopping - just like that which is going on in the spikes/latency thread.
In terms of the speed test weirdness I am seeing, gateway hopping generally makes little or no difference to that. So I'll have the upload test delays (starting and ending), coming and going, whether I've gateway hopped or not.
Anyway, I have relented to agree, as you mention, to run my router for 48hrs though I am quite certain that doing such is going to make no difference to the issues I am having as it makes none for those who do run their routers constantly and are having trouble with their games. ... though I can see us coming back to this brick wall of whether turning one's router off properly at night results in service degradation.