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Noisy phone line when router connected

Townman
Superuser
Superuser
Posts: 22,921
Thanks: 9,538
Fixes: 158
Registered: ‎22-08-2007

Re: Noisy phone line when router connected

Hi Ralph,
There is nothing I can do - I'm just a customer like yourself.  The 9.8dB SNRM proves that the DLM has done nothing of its own accord since the line was fixed.
Luke's comment implied the line is banded, so that needs to be removed and a SNRM reset performed.  If this is a 21CN service, there would also be some benefit in having the US uncapped.
All of this requires PlusNET assistance.  Note when this "hits" your line will drop, go into a 10 day training period during which there might be more drops, so keep an eye on the stats.
Kevin

Superusers are not staff, but they do have a direct line of communication into the business in order to raise issues, concerns and feedback from the community.

LukeS
Grafter
Posts: 203
Registered: ‎09-05-2014

Re: Noisy phone line when router connected

Hi Ralph,
As per Kevin's reply, I'm happy to reset the line and uncap the upstream. It's unlikely that the banding will be removed on it's own so I'm happy to intervene if that is your wish.
tich731
Grafter
Posts: 53
Registered: ‎16-11-2007

Re: Noisy phone line when router connected

Hi Luke,
Yes, please do as you suggest.
I would like to have the speed back to its previous level. i.e. 5.5 - 6Mbps.
Thanks
Ralph
LukeS
Grafter
Posts: 203
Registered: ‎09-05-2014

Re: Noisy phone line when router connected

Interestingly, the banding has now been removed and you are in sync at ~10Mb. Therefore I have placed a modify order to uncap the upstream. I know you might not actually be seeing increased speeds at this moment in time but that will corrected in the next couple of days.
Townman
Superuser
Superuser
Posts: 22,921
Thanks: 9,538
Fixes: 158
Registered: ‎22-08-2007

Re: Noisy phone line when router connected

Quote from: LukeS
DLM should remove the banding if it remains stable (When it works properly) but I can do it manually if you'd like?

Quote from: LukeS
It's unlikely that the banding will be removed on it's own so I'm happy to intervene if that is your wish.

Quote from: LukeS
In colintivy's case, the target is set at 9dB so in theory it will never go below that level but it could go higher.

Quote from: LukeS
Interestingly, the banding has now been removed and you are in sync at ~10Mb

Hi Luke,
Interesting times - did the DLM automatically remove the banding on Ralph's line?  Understanding how the DLM should perform in the context of an improved / repaired line WITHOUT manual intervention does appear to be a bit of a black art.  Hither too, I had understood that a banded line or one having an elevated target SNRM would not improved of its own accord (after rectification of the fault) - manual intervention is always going to be required.  (One does wonder why BTOR / BTw do not automatically reset the line after repairing a fault which was obviously an impact to BB performance?)  From Another source...
Quote
It's no good trying to put timescales on it, it's a bit of an unknown dependent on the specific line conditions. Once DLM turns the ILQ Green, then if it's on Standard [ profile ] it may come down fairly quickly if errors don't rise.

Understanding the context, "ifs", "buts" and "depends" is helpful in being able to offer guidance to users and allows expectations to be managed.  You guys are exceedingly busy, if users can be reassured that their conditions should improve of their own accord given 4-6 days, then it might be possible to reduce the "demand" for manual intervention for DLM resets.  However, I guess that only PN staff can know if the line profile is such that the DLM will indeed act in the described manner.

Ralph,
10Mbps on your line is PDG!!!  You ought to see a profile of around 8.8Mbps on both the BT speed test and in the PN portal under "Current speed".  With a bit of luck you might see data transfer speeds in the region of 8Mbps - I'd kill for that SYNCH speed.  A full set of updated stats (when you have time) would be useful to confirm that all is now OK.
Good luck,
Kevin

Superusers are not staff, but they do have a direct line of communication into the business in order to raise issues, concerns and feedback from the community.

LukeS
Grafter
Posts: 203
Registered: ‎09-05-2014

Re: Noisy phone line when router connected

Shocked
Banding and target SNRM are slightly different issues. It also depends on thresholds that have been set. For example, if you choose super stable thresholds, DLM will react much more quickly to ensure the line is stable when it sees errors. As an example, if I changed someones target SNRM to 9dB then at the same time I could modify the line so that DLM never changes it. I've not had chance to investigate these two lines in that much depth to advise if that's the case or not.
It's not an exact science (It should be) and we don't have access to the full line stats that DLM uses. I'm surprised that the banding has been removed to be honest, but that's how it should work.
tich731
Grafter
Posts: 53
Registered: ‎16-11-2007

Re: Noisy phone line when router connected

The stats for this morning:-
1. Router Stats
                            D/s                U/s
Noise Margin          6.6dB        6.2dB
Speed                9015Kpbs    1084Kpbs
Attenuation          39.0dB          19.9dB
2. BT Speedtest
Download        4.06Mbps        Acceptable range  2 - 7.5Mbps
        IP Profile  7.95Mbps
Upload              0.75Mbps      Upstream rate IP Profile 0.83Mbps

3. Current Line Speed  4Mb

Is there yet an improvement?
LukeS
Grafter
Posts: 203
Registered: ‎09-05-2014

Re: Noisy phone line when router connected

Hi Tich,
I've checked this morning and the upstream has been uncapped, as you can see from your stats. Sync has dropped to 9Mb. I've updated the profile on our side to match. You should see a speed increase shortly.
Townman
Superuser
Superuser
Posts: 22,921
Thanks: 9,538
Fixes: 158
Registered: ‎22-08-2007

Re: Noisy phone line when router connected

Hi Ralph,
When the PN profile matches the BT profile (which Luke has fixed) you should see an improvement in DATA speed.  These figures are dammed near perfect for a line of your attenuation / length.  I hope all remains stable for you now.
Kevin

Superusers are not staff, but they do have a direct line of communication into the business in order to raise issues, concerns and feedback from the community.

Anotherone
Champion
Posts: 19,107
Thanks: 457
Fixes: 21
Registered: ‎31-08-2007

Re: Noisy phone line when router connected

For clarity -
Quote from: Townman
Hither too, I had understood that a banded line or one having an elevated target SNRM would not improved of its own accord (after rectification of the fault) - manual intervention is always going to be required.

I'm not sure where you got that understanding, but I suggest that you may have misinterpreted or read too much into what was said by whoever.
As I've previously pointed out to you that's not the case.
Quote from: Anotherone
Now you know as well as I do, that how DLM chooses to behave and when it will do whatever it's going to do, is not exactly predictable in many situations. The type and rate of errors on a line also have a bearing in the matter.
It's for that reason I use the type of expression "within a reasonable time frame" and depending on the circumstances I might suggest a ball park figure, but it would be too easy to give an unrealistic expectation when you or I don't have sufficient data - we sometimes have difficulty getting sufficient data about our own lines, never mind anyone else's.
It's a matter of judgement by an individual user as to what may be "reasonable". One could state for example that DLM is unlikely to drop the Target SNRM within the next 14 days. Now some users who may have had long periods of stability with lower Target SNRM's may find that unreasonable and want to request it be changed sooner, especially if their Target SNRM has gone much higher than normal (although Plusnet will generally want to see several days of stability before agreeing).  That is the user's judgement and choice.

Quote from: Anotherone
You've forgotten that there are various settings that can be applied to 21CN SNRM Targets, Standard, Stable and Superstable. IIRC only Standard would allow DLM to reduce the Target SNRM which is what the majority of 21CN lines are on.
It is also possible to 'set' the Target SNRM at one of the defined values.

Quote from: Anotherone
It's no good trying to put timescales on it, it's a bit of an unknown dependent on the specific line conditions. Once DLM turns the ILQ Green, then if it's on Standard it may come down fairly quickly if errors don't rise.

Also to be clear DLM has been known to act quicker than 14 days in cases where line conditions are markedly improved, and as can be seen in the case in this thread, it can also remove banding which it had previously applied.
tich731
Grafter
Posts: 53
Registered: ‎16-11-2007

Re: Noisy phone line when router connected

Hi Luke,
Things seem to have settled down nicely. Here are the latest stats:-
The stats for this morning:-
1. Router Stats
                            D/s                U/s
Noise Margin          3.0dB        6.0dB
Speed                11373Kpbs    1033Kpbs
Attenuation        40.0dB          16.0dB
2. BT Speedtest
Download        8.64Mbps        Acceptable range  4 - 21Mbps
        IP Profile  10.03Mbps
Upload              0.67Mbps      Upstream rate IP Profile 0.83Mbps

3. Current Line Speed  10Mb
Thanks Luke for getting this resolved for me.
Thanks also to Townman for helping me understand what was happening.
Ralph
Anotherone
Champion
Posts: 19,107
Thanks: 457
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Registered: ‎31-08-2007

Re: Noisy phone line when router connected

That looks like excellent performance, glad it got sorted for you.
Townman
Superuser
Superuser
Posts: 22,921
Thanks: 9,538
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Registered: ‎22-08-2007

Re: Noisy phone line when router connected

+1  Cool

Superusers are not staff, but they do have a direct line of communication into the business in order to raise issues, concerns and feedback from the community.