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Fitting Filters

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Grafter
Posts: 19,757
Registered: ‎30-07-2007

Re: Fitting Filters

is that alarm plugged into the phone, or have you Sky plugged in, both need filtering
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Pro
Posts: 1,211
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Registered: ‎11-01-2008

Re: Fitting Filters


Neither.
The only wires used in the alarm system are ones that have been traced from one end to the other. It shouldn't need connecting to the phone line.
And Rupert Murdock already has enough money so he's not getting any of mine!
My other car isn't a Ferrari
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Grafter
Posts: 5,924
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Registered: ‎07-04-2007

Re: Fitting Filters

Quote from: James_H
Quote from: gpsmout
You only need a bell wire if you have more than one old style extension phone. The wire is to help the solenoid in the old bell phone ring  the phone.

Also, most modern primary faceplates contain a capacitor to replace the function of the bell wire. ADSL Filters also contain a capacitor to do the same.
The situations where it would be needed are very very rare these days. (No filter, old phone, old faceplate)
Most people can remove it and forget all about it.

There is a lot of misinformation about the bell wire here. Firstly it's not to help the solenoid in the old bell phone and secondly the statement, primary faceplates contain a capacitor to replace the function of the bell wire, the capacitor is the bell wire. Go here and look at the schematics and you will see that pin 3, the ring wire is ac coupled to the speech pair.
Quote
From under the road or along a telegraph pole, your house is served by just TWO wires. This third "bell-wire" is generated by the BT master socket and enables actual bells on old type phones to ring using the 50 volt AC ringer signal. Modern phones have electronic ringers which do not need the bell wire. Its other function is to stop other bells tinkling when rotary dials are used, and it's sometimes known as the "anti-tinkle wire".


The above is from the some link with a simplified description of the bell wire circuit, except I believe the AC ringing voltage is higher than 50V. The bell circuit was added to the master socket to allow home installation of extensions. Before this each phone had it's own bell circuit and when adding extension BT (GPO) had to internally modify the phones and the little connection blocks on the skirting boards. After the modification they basically ended up with a master socket that we know today.
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Community Veteran
Posts: 6,736
Thanks: 13
Registered: ‎02-02-2008

Re: Fitting Filters

Quote from: itsme
The bell circuit was added to the master socket to allow home installation of extensions. Before this each phone had it's own bell circuit and when adding extension BT (GPO) had to internally modify the phones and the little connection blocks on the skirting boards. After the modification they basically ended up with a master socket that we know today.

And what deep joy it was, I've still got all the information for doing that myself.
I've also still got an old ivory-yellow rotary-dial handset that I persuaded the BT engineer to leave behind when they converted us from old-style rented phone + extension phone to a line rental only master socket. It wasn't too difficult to rejig the links inside it to work with the new system, plus of course fitting a new line cord with modern plug. IIRC I had a two-tone green trimphone as a second handset.
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Grafter
Posts: 5,924
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Registered: ‎07-04-2007

Re: Fitting Filters

Parents were never rich enough to pay the extra for a trimphone. Hope you did not have the radioactive one. Go here for the history of the trimphone and to hear the warble scroll down to the bottom picture.
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Community Veteran
Posts: 6,736
Thanks: 13
Registered: ‎02-02-2008

Re: Fitting Filters

Quote from: itsme
Hope you did not have the radioactive one.

Of course I did, it was the only one to have. But then I was working at (though not employed by) STC in New Southgate for many years.  Wink
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Community Veteran
Posts: 19,107
Thanks: 452
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Registered: ‎31-08-2007

Re: Fitting Filters

I've still got one or two, but they may not be significantly radioactive anymore, I'll have to dig them out from my boxes of old phones and check.
I'm not going to go into detail about the bell wire history, myths and facts, of what's been posted here, some wrong some right, suffice to say it is not only old phones with bells that need a bell wire, some more recent tone ringer phones have needed it, eg. BT Big button Phone. Whether the latest issue still needs one, I haven't checked.
By the way, Ringing voltage is typically ~80v. It'll give you a kick if you hang on to the phone wires!
Anyway back on topic.
@maranello
Hi again,
I don't know if you've got your new filtered faceplate yet, don't forget that when you've fitted it, you'll need to provide dedicated wiring to an ADSL socket if you want to plug your router in anywhere else other than the master socket. That wiring should be using (twisted pair) solid core Cat5e or higher standard cable to minimse the risk of interference pick up and should be run more than 3 inches minimum from any mains wiring.
Going back to your line & the drops in sync overnight. You don't need to be doing anything, your modem is syncing with the exchange and if the noise gets too great sync will be lost. Noise from radio interference can be worst at night, but a dodgy connection on the line can cause the problem and make things much worse.
Have you got that tone dial corded handset out of the loft yet? (Don't break any bones in the process!) If not, use your DECT phone for some initial checks as long as you do not have any interference on it. Just listen for  crackling noises in the background when you are making a call to friends or family, if you hear some, then to be certain, you need to use your corded phone, then do the quiet line test (preferably with the router unplugged, then try with the router plugged in). I doubt you can access the Auto Line Test (see my earlier post), (not the same as the quiet line test) on 151 as a Post Office Line Rental customer, you'll probably have to ring their faults number and ask them to carry out a Line Test, don't mention broadband, just say you thought you heard some noise on your line, get them to tell you the results. If you have heard noise, phone them when it is there, confirm they can hear it, ask them to log it and log it as intermittent - that last bit is very important to ensure that you don't cop any charges if an engineer comes out and claims not to find anything! (In which case you've got to suggest he checks all the joints as it was logged as intermittent).
With regards to speed etc. it's the sync speed that's the important thing to get up and stable. IP profile and throughput will then follow, so don't worry about doing speed tests at present, posting your router stats is more helpful at this point. Try to include the time of day when the stats were noted also the Line Up Time (Online Time).
Post back an update to let us know how it's going.
Regards,
Chris.
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Community Veteran
Posts: 6,736
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Registered: ‎02-02-2008

Re: Fitting Filters

Quote from: Anotherone
suffice to say it is not only old phones with bells that need a bell wire,

Very true, I've got a BT Diverse 2010 (DECT, made by Siemens) that I keep and use because I like it and it needs the ring wire signal. Recreated happily by an Excelsus Z-Blocker filter.
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Pro
Posts: 1,211
Thanks: 190
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Registered: ‎11-01-2008

Re: Fitting Filters

Here's an update.
I ordered the ADSLnation XTE-2005 filtered master socket faceplate on Thursday afternoon. It arrived next day - great service  Smiley
My router did not disconnect at all overnight on Thursday, I thought this is great, all you have to do is place an order and things will improve.
Got distracted at the weekend and couldn't fit the faceplate until Sunday morning. As I am using the master socket for my broadband connection and don't intend using any other location, I haven't installed additional dedicated ADSL wiring. Powered up the router and got a downstream sync rate of over 1700kbps. Didn't have much time to do other than make sure phone line was also working.
Upgraded the router firmware from 3.01c to 3.01q.Since then have been monitoring router stats, still getting variability with overnight resyncs. For example, at 9.00pm last night was at around 1000kbps downstream, this morning down to 416kbps but with 19.5dB noise margin. This was then back up at 1280 kbps and 12 dB following a router reboot. Router still reports that Trellis is OFF, despite the upgrade.
Tried the quiet line test using the cordless phone, since I haven't found the old corded tone dial phone that was in the loft (what I did find was my old Acer 386 base unit, an old Game Boy with about a dozen games, a juicer, and lots of cardboard boxes which I didn't have time to rummage through - I don't expect to find a Trim phone in there). Apart from the normal quiet hiss that is always present, there were no crackling noises during the test.
The upshot is that whilst the new filtered faceplate has increased the speed potential of my connection, I'm not realising this because of the variability of the noise and the seemingly random resyncs, which only seem to bring the speed down.
I will continue to follow the helpful suggestions to monitor the router stats and report back when I have collected more data.
Edited @ 9.55am - included router firmware upgrade and trellis status above, plus latest news below
Latest news - I phoned home @ around 9 o'clock whilst my wife was online. Coincidentally, the connection dropped. I remembered that prior to installing the filtered faceplate the DECT phone was double filtered, but is now directly plugged into the phone socket of the new faceplate. Will restore the extra filter tonight to see if it makes any difference.
My other car isn't a Ferrari
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Pro
Posts: 1,211
Thanks: 190
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Registered: ‎11-01-2008

Re: Fitting Filters

As promised, some router stats.
If anyone is bored feel free to have a look and post comments.
Quote
Line Mode G.DMT  Line State Show Time 
Latency Type Interleave  Line Up Time 00:00:03:39 
Line Coding Trellis Off  Line Up Count 1 
 
Statistics Downstream Upstream 
Line Rate 768 Kbps 448 Kbps 
Noise Margin 6.4 dB 14.0 dB 
Line Attenuation 63.0 dB 31.5 dB 
Output Power 15.0 dBm 11.9 dBm
15/05/08 17:50 - test socket
Statistics Downstream Upstream 
Line Rate 1856 Kbps 448 Kbps 
Noise Margin 10.4 dB 15.0 dB 
Line Attenuation 63.0 dB 31.5 dB 
Output Power 17.1 dBm 11.9 dBm
16/05/08 06:30 - test socket
Statistics Downstream Upstream 
Line Rate 1856 Kbps 448 Kbps 
Noise Margin 8.4 dB 15.0 dB 
Line Attenuation 63.0 dB 31.5 dB 
Output Power 17.1 dBm 11.9 dBm
16/05/08 22:08 = test socket
Statistics Downstream Upstream 
Line Rate 1696 Kbps 448 Kbps 
Noise Margin 9.1 dB 15.0 dB 
Line Attenuation 63.0 dB 31.5 dB 
Output Power 16.7 dBm 11.9 dBm
18/05/08 10:44 - test socket
Statistics Downstream Upstream 
Line Rate 160 Kbps 448 Kbps 
Noise Margin 19.9 dB 15.0 dB 
Line Attenuation 63.0 dB 31.5 dB 
Output Power 11.5 dBm 11.9 dBm
18/05/08 16:35 - test socket
Statistics Downstream Upstream 
Line Rate 640 Kbps 448 Kbps 
Noise Margin 13.8 dB 14.0 dB 
Line Attenuation 63.0 dB 31.5 dB 
Output Power 15.3 dBm 11.9 dBm
18/05/08 22:05 - test socket
Statistics Downstream Upstream 
Line Rate 544 Kbps 448 Kbps 
Noise Margin 12.5 dB 14.0 dB 
Line Attenuation 63.0 dB 31.5 dB 
Output Power 14.3 dBm 11.9 dBm
19/05/08 06:30 - test socket
Statistics Downstream Upstream 
Line Rate 704 Kbps 448 Kbps 
Noise Margin 10.2 dB 15.0 dB 
Line Attenuation 63.0 dB 31.5 dB 
Output Power 14.9 dBm 11.9 dBm
19/05/08 20:45
Statistics Downstream Upstream 
Line Rate 416 Kbps 448 Kbps 
Noise Margin 12.4 dB 14.0 dB 
Line Attenuation 63.0 dB 31.5 dB 
Output Power 13.4 dBm 11.9 dBm 
 
21/05/08 17:35
Statistics Downstream Upstream 
Line Rate 384 Kbps 448 Kbps 
Noise Margin 12.3 dB 15.0 dB 
Line Attenuation 63.0 dB 31.5 dB 
Output Power 13.8 dBm 11.9 dBm
29/05/08 22:20 - test socket double filtered DECT
Statistics Downstream Upstream 
Line Rate 800 Kbps 448 Kbps 
Noise Margin 14.0 dB 15.0 dB 
Line Attenuation 63.0 dB 31.5 dB 
Output Power 15.4 dBm 11.9 dBm
30/05/08 17:45 - as above
Statistics Downstream Upstream 
Line Rate 896 Kbps 448 Kbps 
Noise Margin 11.2 dB 14.0 dB 
Line Attenuation 63.0 dB 31.5 dB 
Output Power 15.6 dBm 11.9 dBm
02/06/08 22:05 - master socket, bell wire removed, double filtered DECT
Statistics Downstream Upstream 
Line Rate 896 Kbps 448 Kbps 
Noise Margin 11.8 dB 14.0 dB 
Line Attenuation 63.0 dB 31.5 dB 
Output Power 15.5 dBm 11.9 dBm
03/05/08 06:30 - as above
Statistics Downstream Upstream 
Line Rate 896 Kbps 448 Kbps 
Noise Margin 11.8 dB 15.0 dB 
Line Attenuation 63.0 dB 31.5 dB 
Output Power 15.6 dBm 11.9 dBm
04/06/08 06:30 - as above
Statistics Downstream Upstream 
Line Rate 640 Kbps 448 Kbps 
Noise Margin 9.6 dB 14.0 dB 
Line Attenuation 63.0 dB 31.5 dB 
Output Power 15.3 dBm 11.9 dBm
05/06/08 06:30 - as above
Statistics Downstream Upstream 
Line Rate 832 Kbps 448 Kbps 
Noise Margin 12.5 dB 14.0 dB 
Line Attenuation 63.0 dB 31.5 dB 
Output Power 15.5 dBm 11.9 dBm
06/06/08 06:30 - as above
Statistics Downstream Upstream 
Line Rate 832 Kbps 448 Kbps 
Noise Margin 10.9 dB 15.0 dB 
Line Attenuation 63.0 dB 31.5 dB 
Output Power 15.6 dBm 11.9 dBm
27/06/08 18:05 - as above (nominal setup)
Statistics Downstream Upstream 
Line Rate 1408 Kbps 448 Kbps 
Noise Margin 11.6 dB 14.0 dB 
Line Attenuation 63.0 dB 31.5 dB 
Output Power 16.4 dBm 11.9 dBm
28/06/08 08:43 - nominal setup
Statistics Downstream Upstream 
Line Rate 1408 Kbps 448 Kbps 
Noise Margin 10.9 dB 14.0 dB 
Line Attenuation 63.0 dB 31.5 dB 
Output Power 16.3 dBm 11.9 dBm
28/06/08 22:30 - nominal setup
Statistics Downstream Upstream 
Line Rate 1248 Kbps 448 Kbps 
Noise Margin 12.1 dB 14.0 dB 
Line Attenuation 63.0 dB 31.5 dB 
Output Power 15.9 dBm 11.9 dBm
29/06/08 08:28 - nominal setup
Statistics Downstream Upstream 
Line Rate 960 Kbps 448 Kbps 
Noise Margin 11.9 dB 14.0 dB 
Line Attenuation 63.0 dB 31.5 dB 
Output Power 15.6 dBm 11.9 dBm
30/06/08 06:30 - nominal setup
Statistics Downstream Upstream 
Line Rate 704 Kbps 448 Kbps 
Noise Margin 8.8 dB 15.0 dB 
Line Attenuation 63.0 dB 31.5 dB 
Output Power 15.2 dBm 11.9 dBm

01/07/08 06:30 - nominal setup
Statistics Downstream Upstream 
Line Rate 672 Kbps 448 Kbps 
Noise Margin 11.0 dB 14.0 dB 
Line Attenuation 63.0 dB 31.5 dB 
Output Power 15.3 dBm 11.9 dBm
02/07/08 06:30 - nominal setup
Statistics Downstream Upstream 
Line Rate 256 Kbps 448 Kbps 
Noise Margin 16.4 dB 14.0 dB 
Line Attenuation 63.0 dB 31.5 dB 
Output Power 12.5 dBm 11.9 dBm
02/07/08 06:35 - nominal setup
Statistics Downstream Upstream 
Line Rate 576 Kbps 448 Kbps 
Noise Margin 11.9 dB 14.0 dB 
Line Attenuation 63.0 dB 31.5 dB 
Output Power 15.1 dBm 11.9 dBm
92/07/08 22:09 - nominal setup
Statistics Downstream Upstream 
Line Rate 864 Kbps 448 Kbps 
Noise Margin 13.1 dB 14.0 dB 
Line Attenuation 63.0 dB 31.5 dB 
Output Power 15.4 dBm 11.9 dBm
03/07/08 06:25 - nominal setup
Statistics Downstream Upstream 
Line Rate 800 Kbps 448 Kbps 
Noise Margin 12.1 dB 14.0 dB 
Line Attenuation 63.0 dB 31.5 dB 
Output Power 15.4 dBm 11.9 dBm
03/07/08 20:20 - nominal setup
Statistics Downstream Upstream 
Line Rate 1248 Kbps 448 Kbps 
Noise Margin 11.6 dB 14.0 dB 
Line Attenuation 63.0 dB 31.5 dB 
Output Power 15.9 dBm 11.9 dBm
04/07/08 06:30 - nominal setup
Statistics Downstream Upstream 
Line Rate 1248 Kbps 448 Kbps 
Noise Margin 11.3 dB 15.0 dB 
Line Attenuation 63.0 dB 31.5 dB 
Output Power 15.9 dBm 11.9 dBm
04/07/08 20:53 - nominal setup, uptairs extension unplugged
Statistics Downstream Upstream 
Line Rate 1216 Kbps 448 Kbps 
Noise Margin 11.9 dB 14.0 dB 
Line Attenuation 63.0 dB 31.5 dB 
Output Power 15.9 dBm 11.9 dBm
05/07/08 07:15 - nominal setup
Statistics Downstream Upstream 
Line Rate 1344 Kbps 448 Kbps 
Noise Margin 11.8 dB 14.0 dB 
Line Attenuation 63.0 dB 31.5 dB 
Output Power 16.1 dBm 11.9 dBm
15/07/08 06:33 - nominal setup
Statistics Downstream Upstream 
Line Rate 1056 Kbps 448 Kbps 
Noise Margin 12.1 dB 14.0 dB 
Line Attenuation 63.0 dB 31.5 dB 
Output Power 15.6 dBm 11.9 dBm
16/07/08 17:40 - nominal setup
Statistics Downstream Upstream 
Line Rate 896 Kbps 448 Kbps 
Noise Margin 11.6 dB 14.0 dB 
Line Attenuation 63.0 dB 31.5 dB 
Output Power 15.8 dBm 11.9 dBm
17/07/08 06:28 - nominal setup
Statistics Downstream Upstream 
Line Rate 288 Kbps 448 Kbps 
Noise Margin 14.7 dB 14.0 dB 
Line Attenuation 63.0 dB 31.5 dB 
Output Power 12.8 dBm 11.9 dBm
17/07/08 20:20 - nominal setup
Statistics Downstream Upstream 
Line Rate 1056 Kbps 448 Kbps 
Noise Margin 12.3 dB 14.0 dB 
Line Attenuation 63.0 dB 31.5 dB 
Output Power 15.6 dBm 11.9 dBm
17/07/08 21:40 - nominal setup
Statistics Downstream Upstream 
Line Rate 1184 Kbps 448 Kbps 
Noise Margin 11.7 dB 14.0 dB 
Line Attenuation 63.0 dB 31.5 dB 
Output Power 15.8 dBm 11.9 dBm
18/07/08 06:30 - nominal setup
Statistics Downstream Upstream 
Line Rate 1184 Kbps 448 Kbps 
Noise Margin 12.1 dB 14.0 dB 
Line Attenuation 63.0 dB 31.5 dB 
Output Power 15.8 dBm 11.9 dBm
19/07/08 22:40 - nominal setup
Statistics Downstream Upstream 
Line Rate 1056 Kbps 448 Kbps 
Noise Margin 12.6 dB 14.0 dB 
Line Attenuation 63.0 dB 31.5 dB 
Output Power 15.6 dBm 11.9 dBm 
 
20/07/08 07:32 - nominal setup
Statistics Downstream Upstream 
Line Rate 1056 Kbps 448 Kbps 
Noise Margin 10.2 dB 14.0 dB 
Line Attenuation 63.0 dB 31.5 dB 
Output Power 15.6 dBm 11.9 dBm
20/07/08 11:55 - Filtered faceplate config
Statistics Downstream Upstream 
Line Rate 1792 Kbps 448 Kbps 
Noise Margin 11.9 dB 14.0 dB 
Line Attenuation 63.0 dB 31.5 dB 
Output Power 17.1 dBm 11.9 dBm
21/07/08 22:08 - as above
Statistics Downstream Upstream 
Line Rate 1056 Kbps 448 Kbps 
Noise Margin 13.8 dB 15.0 dB 
Line Attenuation 63.0 dB 31.5 dB 
Output Power 16.0 dBm 11.9 dBm
22/07/08 06:30 - as above, no disconnects overnight
Statistics Downstream Upstream 
Line Rate 1056 Kbps 448 Kbps 
Noise Margin 13.5 dB 15.0 dB 
Line Attenuation 63.0 dB 31.5 dB 
Output Power 16.0 dBm 11.9 dBm
After firmware upgrade and reboot
Statistics Downstream Upstream 
Line Rate 1600 Kbps 448 Kbps 
Noise Margin 12.2 dB 15.0 dB 
Line Attenuation 63.0 dB 31.5 dB 
Output Power 16.9 dBm 11.9 dBm
23/07/08 06:30 - Filtered faceplate config
Statistics Downstream Upstream 
Line Rate 1280 Kbps 448 Kbps 
Noise Margin 11.9 dB 14.0 dB 
Line Attenuation 63.0 dB 31.5 dB 
Output Power 16.3 dBm 11.9 dBm
23/07/08 20:11 as above
Statistics Downstream Upstream 
Line Rate 928 Kbps 448 Kbps 
Noise Margin 14.4 dB 15.0 dB 
Line Attenuation 63.0 dB 31.5 dB 
Output Power 15.6 dBm 11.9 dBm
My other car isn't a Ferrari
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Community Veteran
Posts: 6,736
Thanks: 13
Registered: ‎02-02-2008

Re: Fitting Filters

My initial reaction is a long line (obviously) subject to variable external interference.
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Grafter
Posts: 21,036
Thanks: 2
Registered: ‎04-04-2007

Re: Fitting Filters

Long line or not, it's dropping below the fault threshold rate and a fault needs raising if the hardware and filters have been replaced.
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Pro
Posts: 1,211
Thanks: 190
Fixes: 1
Registered: ‎11-01-2008

Re: Fitting Filters


Jameseh and HPsauce, thanks for your advice. Confirms what I've suspected for a while, that I have a long line such that my router won't tolerate the levels of noise variability that I'm experiencing.
Filters have been eliminated as a cause of the noise, and the filtered faceplate should effectively eliminate my internal wiring.
I haven't been able to try out a different router, so hardware could still be an issue. This seems the logical next step before raising a fault. Would Plusnet be able to loan me a router, preferably of a different make?
My other car isn't a Ferrari
Grafter
Posts: 21,036
Thanks: 2
Registered: ‎04-04-2007

Re: Fitting Filters

We'd be able to lend you a router, but it would be a Dlink (not sure if that's the same as you have already or not).
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Pro
Posts: 1,211
Thanks: 190
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Registered: ‎11-01-2008

Re: Fitting Filters

I'd like to take up the offer. I've got a Voyager 210.

My other car isn't a Ferrari