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Disconnects/Noise margin problems after dark

Palmski
Grafter
Posts: 84
Registered: ‎21-01-2010

Disconnects/Noise margin problems after dark

Since my old modem/router died about 6 months ago I've been having a lot of problems with disconnects in the evening which are almost certainly down to the noise margin dropping off a cliff as soon as the sun goes down. I've been running RouterStats Lite and during the day the noise margin bumbles along happily at ~6db and everything is fine, however as soon as it gets dark that value quickly plunges below 3 and more often than not down to below 1 and then I get disconnected and the modem resyncs (ADSL and internet indicator lights go out, slowly come back on again) at about the same speed as it was previously and the noise margin pops back up briefly to 6 but then drops to about 3 again. If I'm lucky it will stay that way and I remain connected for the evening but if not then it's a rinse/repeat cycle every hour or so.
More info:
* We're on ADSL2+, sync speed is normally somewhere between 9600 and 9800
* The modem/router I have is a TP-Link TD-8840T (http://www.tp-link.com/en/products/details/?model=td-8840t)
* It is plugged directly into a telephone socket upstairs in the study - no telephone plugged in so no microfilter
* 2 Sky boxes/telephones elsewhere in the house are all plugged in via microfilters
* I can't really try it in the master socket as that is 3 floors down and this would mean dismantling my entire internal network to do so and I wouldn't be able to test it properly anyway as the problems occur over time during the evening when the internet is in use
* We did have a problem with noise on the phone line earlier this year but BT resolved this and it is now quiet
Any ideas? Is it more likely to be the line, the modem or our internal wiring?
I would take a drop in speed to get a more stable connection or buy a new modem or pay someone to fix our wiring if it will resolve the problem reliably, it's become a real pain recently as I've started playing an MMO so it is very evident and annoying when these dropouts occur.
74 REPLIES 74
Oldjim
Resting Legend
Posts: 38,460
Thanks: 787
Fixes: 63
Registered: ‎15-06-2007

Re: Disconnects/Noise margin problems after dark

Can you check your wiring as it may be that you have the ring wire connected.
This gives a bit more information http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/socket.htm
You should only have wires connected to terminals 2 and 5
Palmski
Grafter
Posts: 84
Registered: ‎21-01-2010

Re: Disconnects/Noise margin problems after dark

Thanks for the hint, I'll have a look when I get home. I know the wiring in the house is probably pretty non-standard though, we don't have a functional test socket for example. I sometimes think whoever built the place stuck it together with bits of twigs and sellotape.
To be absolutely clear where should I be checking the wiring for terminal connections, at the master socket or at the socket I plug the modem into? Forgive me, I am something of a novice...
jelv
Seasoned Hero
Posts: 26,785
Thanks: 971
Fixes: 10
Registered: ‎10-04-2007

Re: Disconnects/Noise margin problems after dark

Both ends (to stop it acting as an aerial).
jelv (a.k.a Spoon Whittler)
   Why I have left Plusnet (warning: long post!)   
Broadband: Andrews & Arnold Home::1 (FTTC 80/20)
Line rental: Pulse 8 Home Line Rental (£14.40/month)
Mobile: iD mobile (£4/month)
adamwalker
Plusnet Help Team
Plusnet Help Team
Posts: 16,871
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Registered: ‎27-04-2007

Re: Disconnects/Noise margin problems after dark

Let us know how you get on with that as it sounds like we may need to step in if that doesn't' identify a problem.
If this post resolved your issue please click the 'This fixed my problem' button
 Adam Walker
 Plusnet Help Team
Palmski
Grafter
Posts: 84
Registered: ‎21-01-2010

Re: Disconnects/Noise margin problems after dark

OK well I attempted to do this, but the wiring is nothing like described on the Kitz page and when I started removing stuff to make it look like that my broadband connection just dropped altogether (although the phone continued to work). I've cobbled it back again roughly how I think it was previously and I now have a connection back, albeit at a much reduced speed - 5044 down and 370 up which is a big drop, pretty much half of what it was before I started fiddling about. The noise margin is a lot better though!
I have TWO sets of wires connected to the master socket, one with 4 cables (blue/white, orange/white, white/orange and white/blue in 2, 3, 4 and 5 respectively as per Kitz) and a second with three cables (yellow, black and blue in 2, 3 and 5 respectively).
Upstairs had wiring as expected with 2, 3 and 5 connected, but I'm currently working OK with the ring wire disconnected up here.
Any ideas?
ReedRichards
Seasoned Pro
Posts: 4,927
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Registered: ‎14-07-2009

Re: Disconnects/Noise margin problems after dark

Quote from: Palmski
* The modem/router I have is a TP-Link TD-8840T (http://www.tp-link.com/en/products/details/?model=td-8840t)
* It is plugged directly into a telephone socket upstairs in the study - no telephone plugged in so no microfilter

But the plug on the cable should not fit the socket.
Palmski
Grafter
Posts: 84
Registered: ‎21-01-2010

Re: Disconnects/Noise margin problems after dark

That's because I'm not using the cable that came with the tp-link. I tried various different forms of connection/filters etc to see if that might have been the problem and just ended up with the situation as it is now. One cable was no better or worse than any of the others so I just chose to leave it in the most simple form possible to remove any unnecessary variables from the situation - modem connected directly to the socket.
nitram
Rising Star
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Registered: ‎04-08-2012

Re: Disconnects/Noise margin problems after dark

Quote
But the plug on the cable should not fit the socket.

A old dial up modem cable will.
ReedRichards
Seasoned Pro
Posts: 4,927
Thanks: 145
Fixes: 25
Registered: ‎14-07-2009

Re: Disconnects/Noise margin problems after dark

Quote from: nitram
A old dial up modem cable will.

An old dial-up modem cable was never rated to go faster than 0.056Mbps.  I don't believe it is correct to assume that any old cable you find is fit for purpose just because it fits the sockets. 
Palmski
Grafter
Posts: 84
Registered: ‎21-01-2010

Re: Disconnects/Noise margin problems after dark

It works 100% during daylight hours, and worked with my old router before it died.
The same cable also worked fine in our old property, I'm pretty confident it's not the problem.
jelv
Seasoned Hero
Posts: 26,785
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Registered: ‎10-04-2007

Re: Disconnects/Noise margin problems after dark

It could be more susceptible to picking up the increased interference at night. Is it flat or twisted pairs? Is it shielded?
It's probably not the problem, but you should try a standard filter & cable to see if it makes a difference.
jelv (a.k.a Spoon Whittler)
   Why I have left Plusnet (warning: long post!)   
Broadband: Andrews & Arnold Home::1 (FTTC 80/20)
Line rental: Pulse 8 Home Line Rental (£14.40/month)
Mobile: iD mobile (£4/month)
Palmski
Grafter
Posts: 84
Registered: ‎21-01-2010

Re: Disconnects/Noise margin problems after dark

I tried all combinations, none made any difference. If it's recommended then I will switch back to using the cables that came with the router, I don't think it will really make any difference though.
I'm more concerned about the state of the wiring of the master socket after my investigations last night, can anyone comment on that?
Quote
I have TWO sets of wires connected to the master socket, one with 4 cables (blue/white, orange/white, white/orange and white/blue in 2, 3, 4 and 5 respectively as per Kitz) and a second with three cables (yellow, black and blue in 2, 3 and 5 respectively).

To reiterate I started unplugging so that I only had the two blue and white ones connected but in doing that I lost internet connectivity entirely, so I'm more than slightly nervous about doing anything further without some advice from someone who knows better than I what is going on.
My guess is that the second 3 cable bundle is the one coming in from BT and it's wired directly to the terminals on the master socket which would explain why the test socket doesn't work? So if that is correct I do need those 3 to stay connected and I can disconnect the two orange/white cables from the 4 cable bundle. I would just like some confirmation before going ahead and potentially completely borking my internet connection!
Just FYI here's the graph for yesterday evening - you can see where I started removing cables from the master socket, but before that it shows a reasonably typical example of an evening's connection.
jelv
Seasoned Hero
Posts: 26,785
Thanks: 971
Fixes: 10
Registered: ‎10-04-2007

Re: Disconnects/Noise margin problems after dark

Can you get a photograph of the inside of the master socket so we can see the cables?
jelv (a.k.a Spoon Whittler)
   Why I have left Plusnet (warning: long post!)   
Broadband: Andrews & Arnold Home::1 (FTTC 80/20)
Line rental: Pulse 8 Home Line Rental (£14.40/month)
Mobile: iD mobile (£4/month)
Palmski
Grafter
Posts: 84
Registered: ‎21-01-2010

Re: Disconnects/Noise margin problems after dark

I'm currently at work so won't be able to do anything until much later. However I can tell you that I can see two bundles wired into the master socket.
Bundle 1 has 3 cables: yellow, black and blue cables.
Bundle 2 has 4 cables: blue/white, orange/white, white/orange, white/blue.
The terminals are wired as follows:
Terminal 2: yellow cable from Bundle 1 AND blue/white cable from Bundle 2
Terminal 3: black cable from Bundle 1 AND orange/white cable from Bundle 2
Terminal 4: white/orange cable from Bundle 2
Terminal 5: blue cable from Bundle 1 AND white/blue cable from Bundle 2
There are no other connections to anything else in the socket that I can see. It looks roughly like the image here http://www.thinkbroadband.com/images/faq/faceplates/IMG_1346-crop.jpg except as mentioned there are two bundles of wires coming in and the connections are as described above.