Different line same ISP?

[#1]

Sorry for the long post. This is part of why I really would like to try and get a handle on this before actually contacting support properly.
From Feb 2012 to Nov 2012 I synced at 18000kbps and had a solid 3.2 SNR Margin, low ping, no disconnections other then expected ones (Maintenance, manual disconnection, wide spread connection problem). My brother’s connection was similar though for obvious reason I paid less attention to what his connection was doing prior to Nov since I don’t use it.
In a nut shell this is what happened, though not necessarily in a brief nutshell:
Sometime in Nov 2012 my Plusnet broadband disconnected in the early hours (about 01:00). It had maintained 180000kbps fine up till then. The first time it disconnected it came back in a few minutes, everything seemed normal. But then a few minutes later it disconnected again, then again etc for around 2 hours. It eventual stopped the constant disconnecting but the sync had lowered, I forget how low but it was not 180000kbps. I thought it could just be early morning maintenance or a plusnet problem so left it alone hoping it would sort itself out.
By about a week later my connection was syncing around 120000kbps. After trying to make sure it wasn’t my router or filter I brought a wired phone and plugged it into the socket and heard crackling on the line. Fault discovered and by then with my sync speed dropping to 6000kbps I rang BT and reported the fault.
Engineer came out I think it was the 19th of December. He looked at the sockets inside the house, snipped some wires, put on some clear plastic connectors, ran some tests then went outside and looked at the box out there. He snipped some wires out there, connected them up again with clear plastic connectors, ran some tests and was still getting the noise. At that point it was getting towards 5pm and I got told ‘I don’t have the stuff to do underground’. He went away and the next day I got another engineer come out.
First thing I learnt from the new engineer was all of them can do underground, so that was nice. This guy actually seemed to care and rather than looking just at the wires inside the box outside he looked at the wires outside the box coming out of the ground as well. When he did that though he found that they had eroded and was very easy to pull loose. This resulted in all the telephone lines coming into the house getting severed. After 2 hours he had them all connected back up, ran some checks on the line telling him what they were defined as, ran a quite line check on my plusnet line, connected a laptop as well and ran some tests on that too and then declared it fixed. I did ask if he could test my brothers connection as well since it got its line severed but was told he couldn’t for some reason, something like he could only test the line he came out to fix. My line sync by then had gone down to 4000kbps so I couldn’t tell if he had truly fixed anything other than it was still syncing at all. The crackling was also solved as well though which was the fault he came out to fix. With everything ‘fixed’ the engineer left.
Once the engineer left it took till early Feb before my sync speed finally reached 18000kbps again. However with that came the lower then before SNR Margin along with the occasional disconnect and moments where the internet stops responding altogether. When I look at the router stats at this time the SNR Margin was dropping to 1.0 which I assumed was the cause of the internet stopping.
However separate to my plusnet connection my brother was having much more pronounced problems. When the phone rang on his line about 20-30 minutes after the engineer left I was checking routers and making sure everything was ok. I noticed his connection disconnected for a moment then came back. After a few phone calls and a few disconnections later I thought I was establishing a pattern. However it soon stopped and the correlation between making a phone call and his connection dropping went. I thought it could just be after being disconnected and the engineer fiddling with the wires it would need to sort itself out again and was just disconnecting randomly and looked like it was in tandem with the phone being used. The fact it stopped doing it after a short while seemed to support this.
After a couple of weeks though it became clear that my brothers connection wasn’t right. Like I said, my plusnet connection took till Feb before it got back up to its full speed again and with talk about this crosstalk I’m now believing what happened makes sense. When the engineer left my brothers connection was still syncing at 180000kbps. However I believe what happened was as my plusnet connection increased its speed and reached a certain point (Like 10000kbps) the crosstalk thing came into effect and as my sync increased his started to decrease.
Thinking about crosstalk even more after sleeping on it I’ve just remembered I had a problem with crosstalk before. It was back in 2011 I think. An engineer came out and fixed it. He said it had managed to damage a circuit board back at the exchange and he had never seen anything like it. The fault we saw though was that noise was on both my line and my brothers. The engineer fixed the problem by using a spare pair of wires coming into the house, at least that’s what he said he did.
This has now got me wondering if maybe that last engineer that came round used the damaged pair again when he pulled all the wires out?
The other thought I have is maybe there was a fault in the line going down to the exchange that caused my last bout of crackling in Nov. So the crackling on the line was also this crosstalk thing which was affecting my brother’s connection like it is mine now. I.E we have now switched problems. Before Nov I had the low sync much more pronounced though, he had lower SNR Margins. But because he is less bothered by what he syncs at and his SNR Margins and I didn’t need to know because it isn’t my connection we had no clue there was a fault for him. The engineer then comes, pulls all the wires out, puts me on the connection my brother had, puts my brother on the connection I had. They both still have the crossover fault only it was less pronounced on the connection I currently have so the tests came back fine. Then as my sync speed increases my brothers decreases leaving us in the mess were in now.
Does this make sense? Is this enough of a problem/explanation to report as a fault to get fixed?
@ Anotherone
From 2005 – 2013 mid feb I paid BT for the phone line and plusnet for broadband. Since mid Feb and taking up plusnets unlimited package I switched the phone to plusnet as well.
My brother has BT for his Phone line and Zen for broadband.
I did try connecting the other way round, using my brother’s details on my plusnet line and it didn’t work, not sure what that means. It connected but took me to a BT wholesale page explaining what might have gone wrong.
I have tried the quiet line test both previously and just now for peace of mind. Both lines sound ok. Like I said above already, my brother’s connection seemed to correlate with loosing sync when a phone call was received or made. But it cleared up fairly quickly and no longer does it. The only other issue with his phone we’ve had is a handful of one off calls where we can’t hear the caller talking. It’s like they have the microphone part of the phone at their knees. 99% of the calls are fine though and it seemed much more likely it was just a problem for the person calling. Thinking about it now, I’m starting to wonder. I don’t know about my plusnet phone line because I don’t use it for calls.
Right now the best demonstration I have to highlight the issue is this screenshot for my brother’s connection which i have hopefully included as an attachment to this post.
The first set of results is with my connection disconnected.
The second is with it connected.
For my plusnet connection the problem is less obvious when looking at the router stats:
--- DSL Information ---
DSL Driver Version:  AnnexA version - A2pB023k.d21d
DSL VPI/VCI:         0/38
DSL Status:          Showtime
DSL Mode:            ADSL2+
DSL Channel:        
DSL Upstream Rate:   1276 Kbps
DSL Downstream Rate: 16487 Kbps
                     Down         up    
DSL Noise Margin:     5.6 dB       6.0 dB
DSL Attenuation:     26.0 dB      13.6 dB
DSL Transmit Power:   0.0 dBm     12.8 dBm
This is what I currently have but I’m pretty sure this is because someone at plusnet changed my profile yesterday morning, least I hope so.
This is more typical of the connection I’ve been getting:
--- DSL Information ---
DSL Driver Version:  AnnexA version - A2pB023k.d21d
DSL VPI/VCI:         0/38
DSL Status:          Showtime
DSL Mode:            ADSL2+
DSL Channel:        
DSL Upstream Rate:   1272 Kbps
DSL Downstream Rate: 18120 Kbps
                     Down         up    
DSL Noise Margin:     2.1 dB       5.8 dB
DSL Attenuation:     26.5 dB      13.6 dB
DSL Transmit Power:   0.0 dBm     12.8 dBm
But this is when things are ok. What happens is randomly the SNR Margin will fluctuate and go to 1.0 and either the internet stops for a moment or I get disconnected entirely.
What it should be more like:
--- DSL Information ---
DSL Driver Version:  AnnexA version - A2pB023k.d21d
DSL VPI/VCI:         0/38
DSL Status:          Showtime
DSL Mode:            ADSL2+
DSL Channel:        
DSL Upstream Rate:   1276 Kbps
DSL Downstream Rate: 18549 Kbps
                     Down         up    
DSL Noise Margin:     3.2 dB       6.0 dB
DSL Attenuation:     26.0 dB      13.6 dB
DSL Transmit Power:   0.0 dBm     12.8 dBm
Don’t get me wrong though, on occasion my connection will sync like this and even give a 3.2 SNR Margin. It just doesn’t stay like that for long anymore. After a disconnection it will often start at 3.4-3.2 then over hours or days it will go down to 2.3-2.0 and along with that have random bursts of chaos causing no internet in one way or another as previously stated.
When I disconnect my brother’s connection my stats are then:
--- DSL Information ---
DSL Driver Version:  AnnexA version - A2pB023k.d21d
DSL VPI/VCI:         0/38
DSL Status:          Showtime
DSL Mode:            ADSL2+
DSL Channel:        
DSL Upstream Rate:   1276 Kbps
DSL Downstream Rate: 19210 Kbps
                     Down         up    
DSL Noise Margin:     3.4 dB       6.0 dB
DSL Attenuation:     26.0 dB      13.6 dB
DSL Transmit Power:   0.0 dBm     12.8 dBm
With the assumed profile change and my brother’s connection disconnected I can currently achieve:
--- DSL Information ---
DSL Driver Version:  AnnexA version - A2pB023k.d21d
DSL VPI/VCI:         0/38
DSL Status:          Showtime
DSL Mode:            ADSL2+
DSL Channel:        
DSL Upstream Rate:   1276 Kbps
DSL Downstream Rate: 17241 Kbps (16487 Kbps is what it is at the moment when my brother is connected, just for easy comparison.)
                     Down         up    
DSL Noise Margin:     6.2 dB       6.4 dB
DSL Attenuation:     26.5 dB      13.6 dB
DSL Transmit Power:   0.0 dBm     12.8 dBm
I hope I’ve explained well enough and given you what you wanted to know.

[#2]

Just to annoy Anotherone, I'm going to do some more theorising    (I thought that was what these forums are all about since we're not sitting in the OP's front room with a battery of test gear)
First the original issue of being able to log into the Zen/BT line with the Plusnet credentials:
There's no way the lines are going to sync at all, let alone at those rates if there is electrical contact (or severe crosstalk, or any other fault) between the lines. The only realistic explanation I can think of is that the Zen DSLAM port is accepting both Zen and Plusnet credentials. As I theorised previously, it may be that the BTOR engineer (2nd one) swapped pairs around during testing and the Plusnet line was originally on what is now the Zen DSLAM port. So either both realms got configured on the same port or port-based authentication got turned off and the "test configuration" didn't get restored to what it ought to be. Either way, it's an interesting detail but I don't think it has anything to do with the perceived sync rate & SNR issues.
Secondly, given all the testing that has gone on recently, swapping routers, disconnecting one, then the other, I think it's highly likely that the DLM system has kicked in, attempting to stabilise what it sees as line disconnections. So that's likely to contribute to a reduction in throughput on both lines. From the Zen router stats, I see that interleaving is on. Since you noted a drop in throughput and increased latency the other morning, I'm guessing interleaving has also kicked in on the Plusnet line. I'll leave it to one of the ADSL experts to comment on the interpretation of the line stats you've posted. But overall your sync rates don't look too bad for the quoted line attenuation (with 26dB attenuation, a rate of around 17630kbps would be "normal"). It may be a case of getting the line(s) reset then leaving things for a while to settle down before attempting further diagnosis - others will be better able to advise on that.
Finally, in terms of trying to optimise the performance of both lines (and minimise any interactions between them), I think it's worth checking the wiring in the house before looking for faults in BTOR's underground network or the exchange. I assume both lines arrive at the building in a single cable into the external box you mentioned and are then split out and wired to different rooms in the house. It might help if you can explain what exists in the way of cabling and sockets on each line. Some photos of the relevant bits would be ideal!

[#3]

I’m pretty sure interleaving has always been on for both lines.
My brother has already asked Zen to reset the line, it did nothing useful. Dropped the rate down further for a few days then leveled out again at the same low rate it’s been since Dec. I have given it a number of interval periods between diagnosing to stabilize the lines. Its part of why I’m now into March trying to get it sorted still. Also 17630kbps is the speed i get when my brothers connection is disconnected. This is obliviously not a viable solution.
I’m aware that the speeds are pretty good but that still don’t mean things are ok. Getting disconnected and the internet cutting out are obviously not acceptable. The way I see what happened yesterday morning is like taking your car to a garage to fix a red light coming on. The mechanic fixes the problem and you start driving home. Everything is fine till you hit a motorway then you find the car won’t go faster than 55mph. You go back to the mechanic and he fixes the problem by making all motorway speed limits 55mph instead of actually fixing the problem he made with your car. He then tells you 55mph is still a decent speed. As far as I’m concerned if I had 70mph before I should be able to get 70mph now and I would want my car fixed so it could do that speed again. Same for my ADSL.
Apologies for the diagrams lack of artistic flare but it’s the best I can do, especially with a mouse. Please see Layout2.jpg
0. This is the box outside the house. See picture Adsl0.jpg
1. This is a box that houses the cable coming into the house which then gets spilt up. See picture Adsl1.jpg
2. This is the master socket for my brother’s connection; it acts as the main telephone point for the house. See picture Adsl2.jpg
2b. This is the extension going to my brothers room from the master socket downstairs.
3. This is my Plusnet line. See picture Adsl3-4.jpg.
4. This is my Sky line. See picture Adsl3-4.jpg.
I wrote the numbers of the lines on each of my boxes so I could remember which was which. This is why there is a yellow space there.
Up to 2, 3, 4 is the phone line provider’s responsibility. Only the extension from 2 to 2b is ours. I have of course bypassed it completely and done the diagnostics with my brother’s router connected into the master socket at 2 so I know it’s nothing to do with the extension. My own lines are both master sockets and all that is connected to them are filters and a router. Both of which I have brought new ones of while trying to identify what’s going wrong as well as new cables between the router and filter.
Hope this helps.

[#4]

@chaoticmess, thanks for the history, OK, there as lot to go through here, but first the red herrings.
@Bright, nothing wrong with a bit of theorising if it's directly related to the posters problem, is technically correct and technically possible. All the stuff about the BT Backhaul is irrelevant and just clouds the issue.
The problem here is simply a fault on one or both lines anywhere between, and/or in, the end users house and the exchange, and possibly a port programming issue.
Taking your last post, the "firstly" - two parts - first bit wrong, there only needs to be sufficient signal getting from the exchange to the end user and from the modem/router back to the exchange for sync to occur and if the signal is big enough the speed will be high. Second bit obviously a possibility, but pure speculation as to how, why, when etc.which realms may be on the port. Spraxyt explained much more succinctly earlier.
The "secondly" - yep, most likely DLM. The "finally" obviously checking for internal wiring problems is a good idea.
@chaoticmess
Thanks for the pictures and extra information in the last two posts. It does however lead to some unexplained things.
First the Stats. When you disconnect the modem/router on one line and are looking at the effects on the other, is the other line resyncing by itself or are you rebooting to show the new speed that it then achieved?
Second, the current Plusnet stats -

Quote from: chaoticmess

This is what I currently have but I’m pretty sure this is because someone at plusnet changed my profile yesterday morning, least I hope so.

No-one at Plusnet will have altered any profiling on your line as a result of your post. Not only don't they have time, you wouldn't do such a thing without good reason. As Bright has rightly speculated, this is more likely to be the Exchange DLM thinking you either have too many errors or may have a dropping connection as a result of swapping things about to do tests. Can I suggest that in future, you log into the modem/router, go to the Internet Connection page and drop the PPP(oA) Internet session by clicking Disconnect.  Wait perhaps a minute and then power down the modem/router and waiting a minute before disconnecting from the line. Wait at least 10 minutes doing whatever you need/want before doing the reverse and Connecting again. This helps to prevent the DLM from thinking you have a dropping connection.
Third, you've now mentioned a Sky Line. So I now have the impression you have 3 lines coming into the house. Can you explain more and what this is for etc.
Fourth, whilst I take your point about which bits are the phone line providers' responsibility, I would still like to see a (clear) picture of the wiring in the box and the back of the socket  that you've called ADSL1 where the lines are split, if you could unscrew the socket plate and take photo(s).
Finally, the Zen line, the problem with the calls is indicative of a line fault. OK, we know about BT Customer Service etc, whilst Zen may have a good reputation, can you tell us generally what their Customer Service is like and is it based in the UK and do they generally have reasonable technical understanding?

[#5]

Quote from: Anotherone

if it's directly related to the posters problem, is technically correct and technically possible. All the stuff about the BT Backhaul is irrelevant and just clouds the issue.

So you think it's not technically correct or technically possible? The bit about the BT Backhaul is not irrelevant - it is part of an answer to the OP's earlier question. Or does answering questions just cloud the issue? The OP is clearly well able to understand all the issues, don't you think?

Quote from: Anotherone

first bit wrong, there only needs to be sufficient signal getting from the exchange to the end user and from the modem/router back to the exchange for sync to occur and if the signal is big enough the speed will be high.

And that's going to happen with 3 (or 4) modems on the line? If the OP's router can sync with the Plusnet port  from the Plusnet master socket and from the Zen master socket then in your scenario the Plusnet port is going to see two CPE routers when the OP's brother is online. And since the Zen CPE router also syncs with the Zen port, I think that makes 4 modems all fighting for the same bandwidth.
I don't see much point in me contributing further to this thread as no matter what I say, you're bound to put a lot of effort into trying to suggest I'm wrong.
@chaoticmess
Good luck with getting your problem fixed! 

[#6]

Quote from: Anotherone

First the Stats. When you disconnect the modem/router on one line and are looking at the effects on the other, is the other line resyncing by itself or are you rebooting to show the new speed that it then achieved?

The short answer is both. My feeling is this is a router issue. If I disconnect my line my brothers connection will increase. The first pic I posted of his adsl status was within minutes of each other. I didn’t do anything to it other than disconnect my line, wait a minute then type the command in again to show the stats. The connection didn’t actually seem to lose sync though. From my observations it seems to just keep the connection but increase the sync rate by 1mbps.
If I disconnect his connection my stats show the same speeds but the SNR Margin goes up. To get the better speed I need to manually force it to resync.

Quote from: Anotherone

No-one at Plusnet will have altered any profiling on your line as a result of your post. Not only don't they have time, you wouldn't do such a thing without good reason. As Bright has rightly speculated, this is more likely to be the Exchange DLM thinking you either have too many errors or may have a dropping connection as a result of swapping things about to do tests. Can I suggest that in future, you log into the modem/router, go to the Internet Connection page and drop the PPP(oA) Internet session by clicking Disconnect.  Wait perhaps a minute and then power down the modem/router and waiting a minute before disconnecting from the line. Wait at least 10 minutes doing whatever you need/want before doing the reverse and Connecting again. This helps to prevent the DLM from thinking you have a dropping connection.

I don’t do all of that exactly but with a couple of exceptions I do always click the disconnect button first. Shall try waiting longer before doing anything in future. It does seem very coincidently to me. I make this thread and first thing in the morning my connection gets reduced like its been capped. I wasn’t even doing anything with it testing wise, hadn’t done so for a good day. I’ve also disconnected and reconnected a lot more on previous days then I last did prior to this happening so don’t see why it would just suddenly happen now for that reason. To many errors I can buy along with it disconnecting on its own due to the SNR Margin fluctuating too much.

Quote from: Anotherone

Third, you've now mentioned a Sky Line. So I now have the impression you have 3 lines coming into the house. Can you explain more and what this is for etc.

I've been trying to leave the sky line out of it so as not to complicate matters all the more. Its just my second line, I can’t include it in diagnostics because up till recently it was on Adsl Max with Demon so wasn't comparable to my brother's and mine ADSL2+ lines which are much more sensitive at the higher speeds. Its working fine though as far as i can tell. (It got switched late Feb way after the problems started so I'm very confident the switching over / change in this regard is not the cause of our problems.) I have tried disconnecting all the lines and connecting my brothers line only. It reaches the attainable rate of 187000kbps or better. I then connect my sky line up and my brother’s sync marginally decrease if at all by about 2000kbps max, giving something like 185000kbps. This to me seems like something ‘normal’ interference might do. When I connect my plusnet line afterwards though my brothers line instantly decreases to the kind of attainable rate seen on the previous posts pic. The 17000kbps was one of its better syncs, more often than not its 160000kbps, it’s why I took a screen shot as I was surprised it managed 17000kbps that time.

Quote from: Anotherone

Fourth, whilst I take your point about which bits are the phone line providers' responsibility, I would still like to see a (clear) picture of the wiring in the box and the back of the socket that you've called ADSL1 where the lines are split, if you could unscrew the socket plate and take photo(s).

Shall do that once I have access to the bedroom the camera is in again.

Quote from: Anotherone

Finally, the Zen line, the problem with the calls is indicative of a line fault. OK, we know about BT Customer Service etc, whilst Zen may have a good reputation, can you tell us generally what their Customer Service is like and is it based in the UK and do they generally have reasonable technical understanding?

While it was actually happening I was `…` this close to having an engineer get resent out. After testing my theory a few times I was on the phone trying to explain to BT how the engineer had done something to make the phone disconnect the router when it stopped doing it. I then got shaky when the whole ‘we charge you if there isn’t a problem’ thing came up. With no fault anymore and not willing to get charged I backed down and since then have been trying to pin down a fault I can ring up and say is the problem. If it wasn’t for the potential charge I would have just had an engineer come out there and then.
I do not know as it’s my brothers line I’ve not had cause to ring them. I asked him and from his report they seemed ok. Knew what to do and what he wanted when he requested the line get reset, got activated within a few hours.
To try and help me figure out the problem he gave me the username and password for his account which has let me log in to their website portal. You might find this helpful, if only for a time line.
Upstream Downstream Sync Rate BRAS Profile Interleave Sync Date Date
1160 12647 14336 TR101 Auto 04/02/2013 04:16 04/02/2013 04:16
1160 12647 14336 TR101 Auto 02/02/2013 04:16 02/02/2013 04:16
1168 12647 14336 TR101 Auto 28/01/2013 04:28 28/01/2013 04:28
1168 12647 14336 TR101 Auto 26/01/2013 05:43 26/01/2013 05:43
1160 12647 14336 TR101 Auto 24/01/2013 05:57 24/01/2013 05:57
1168 12647 14336 TR101 Auto 22/01/2013 05:23 22/01/2013 05:23
1168 12647 14336 TR101 Auto 20/01/2013 04:38 20/01/2013 04:38
1168 12647 14336 TR101 Auto 18/01/2013 07:33 18/01/2013 07:33
1168 12647 14336 TR101 Auto 16/01/2013 04:52 16/01/2013 04:52
1168 12647 14336 TR101 Auto 14/01/2013 04:28 14/01/2013 04:28
1168 12647 14336 TR101 Auto 12/01/2013 04:25 12/01/2013 04:25
1168 12647 14336 TR101 Auto 10/01/2013 05:24 10/01/2013 05:24
1160 12647 14336 TR101 Auto 08/01/2013 04:20 08/01/2013 04:20
1160 12647 14336 TR101 Auto 06/01/2013 04:22 06/01/2013 04:22
1160 12647 14336 TR101 Auto 04/01/2013 06:52 04/01/2013 06:52
1160 12647 14336 TR101 Auto 02/01/2013 04:21 02/01/2013 04:21
1168 12647 14336 TR101 Auto 31/12/2012 04:15 31/12/2012 04:15
1160 12647 14336 TR101 Auto 29/12/2012 04:57 29/12/2012 04:57
1168 9761  11064 TR101 Auto 27/12/2012 08:08 27/12/2012 08:08
1160 12647 14336 TR101 Auto 24/12/2012 04:27 24/12/2012 04:27
1168 15570 17648 TR101 Auto 21/12/2012 04:56 21/12/2012 04:56
1168 15260 17296 TR101 Auto 05/12/2012 05:31 05/12/2012 05:31
1168 15153 17176 TR101 Auto 03/12/2012 04:13 03/12/2012 04:13
1168 15153 17176 TR101 Auto 01/12/2012 03:52 01/12/2012 03:52
1188 15521 17592 TR101 Auto 23/11/2012 04:45 23/11/2012 04:45
Just in case you start thinking the same thing I did when I saw those numbers and got a little confused. The numbers this list gives for sync rate is the number the draytek router gives as Actual Rate not Attainable Rate. As you can clearly see before the engineer came it was a lot higher. This makes me think all the more what I said previously is true. As my connections sync increased a few days after the engineer left the fault became more pronounced and made my brothers connection go significantly lower. Once my connection gained its full speed again my SNR Margin then started to fluctuate because of the fault with the 2 lines and causes the blips and disconnections.
Something else I've just noticed and am wondering about:
--- DSL Information ---
DSL Driver Version:  AnnexA version - A2pB023k.d21d
DSL VPI/VCI:         0/38
DSL Status:          Showtime
DSL Mode:            ADSL2+
DSL Channel:        
DSL Upstream Rate:   994 Kbps
DSL Downstream Rate: 14335 Kbps
                     Down         up    
DSL Noise Margin:     6.9 dB       4.4 dB
DSL Attenuation:     24.5 dB      11.2 dB
DSL Transmit Power:  21.1 dBm     12.4 dBm
Thats what i get if i put my router on my brothers line with mine still connected. Its the Transmit power that I'm finding interesting. On my line i get 0.0 dBm shouldn't it have similar power numbers? Is one line taking the others power or something?

[#7]

Quote from: chaoticmess

From my observations it seems to just keep the connection but increase the sync rate by 1mbps.

Ah, I'm sure you are misinterpreting the stats there. The sync hasn't actually changed. The figure "Actual" rate is the one to look at. The other clue to look at is the "Line up count" that some modem/routers provide, if that hasn't changed there's been no loss of sync.
The "Attainable" rate figure is a predicted figure calculated by some modem/routers (firmware dependant) and is based on the current sync speed and the current noise/noise margin and an assumed Target SNRM. As you point out with the stats attached to reply #15 the SNRM changes and decreases on his line when you connect your modem/router, in this example from 8 to 7dB This is why the the predicted "Attainable" rate decreases.
Most modem/routers that provide this figure assume the Target to be 6dB, so if sync was actually achieved with a 3dB Target it can give "Attainable" rates less than the current achieved rate. Such figures are only a guide and can be misleading and most times best ignored.
As can be seen from the Zen data you've posted the connection hasn't lost sync since the 29/12/2012.
The fact that some modem/routers report power levels of 0dB on some lines is a reporting bug - it doesn't mean the power is being taken by another line or anything. Calculation of PSD is very complex and is again firmware dependant. Conditions on individual lines will be different, even when there are no faults, and if during the calculation an unexpected value is encountered, it's simply a  case of "computer says no" and it returns a 0dB figure. Essentially this can be ignored. It's more a case of recognising what is "normal" for your line when it's in a known good condition, and if the figures change, then something is amiss.
Another example of firmware bugs commonly seen on these boards is very large -ve values for FEC errors on Thomson mode/routers!
Whilst monitoring stats on one line, as modem/routers on other lines are switched on & off, it's not unusual to see small changes in the SNRM. These can be any lines in the same cable(s) back to the Cab and/or Exchange, and the observed effects will depend on the condition of the individual pairs in the cable as well as the number of pairs. As has been mentioned signals form other lines are seen as noise and is the most common example of crosstalk.
A larger change in SNRM can indicate a problem/fault on either the pair being monitored or one or more of the other pairs. When lines are properly balanced and using twisted pair cable (the norm), crosstalk is small.  If a given line develops a low insulation fault that upsets the balance, eg.an earth fault, that line will radiate more of it's signal, this is picked up by other lines as more noise. And conversely, the faulty line is more susceptible to picking up more noise from the surrounding lines and environment.
If an insulation fault is between two lines, then similar effects can be seen on both lines but things get more complex and there can be other interactions. Likewise a bad connection on one leg of a pair can result in more complex behaviour & response to the surrounding conditions.
One of the more common faults is low insulation and bad connections at a cable joint in a pair caused by moisture getting into the joint and can result in a "rectified loop" fault. This type of fault can come and go not only dependant on the amount of damp, but the voltages on the line at a given time. It can cause a phone line to "ring-trip".
And it is not unusual for such a bad connection to cause the broadband signal to drop when ringing current appears on a line - ie. when a phone is rung. To make matters worse (for the engineer) ringing current can temporarily clean a bad connection and result in the severity of the problem being less or disappearing for a while. It doesn't mean the fault is not present, just more difficult to detect, and sometimes they can be missed.
Other things that can result in larger SNRM changes are using non-twisted pair cables (common with plug-in flat extension phone cables plugged direct into a line), also old style drop-wires, and things even being wired incorrectly using a "split pair" - that's one leg from one pair and the other leg from another pair.
All the phone symptoms you've described and stats variations on the Zen line indicate there is most likely a definite fault on it. Whether there is also one on the Plusnet line is more difficult to be certain and whether there is a low insulation problem between the pairs is uncertain. Audible noise on lines is also indicative of a fault.
The picture of the wiring at the ADSL1 socket will help determine if there is any "split pairs" internally and all this will help to determine the best ways to report the fault(s). (This is only complicated by the fact that BT is the line rental provider on the Zen line!).
HTH and I hope that's given a clearer picture of what can and almost certainly is going on with your lines. Ask away if there's anything that''s not clear. (Oh, there is a bit of a don't know in relation to the Realms that might be on the Zen port, but we'll address that later).

[#8]

Ok, taking all that in what you seem to be saying is I’ve been looking at the wrong stat on my brother’s router and that stat along with the power thing can be safely ignored. I guess it’s at least nice to know what doesn’t matter even if it’s not helpful in identifying the fault.
I haven’t been looking at the wrong stat with my router on my connection though which still clearly is affected by my brother’s connection being disconnected. My line increases its sync speed by a significant amount as well as the SNR Margin increasing a bit but most importantly becoming stable. This to me still suggests there is some sort of issue between the 2 lines.
Its either that or both lines have problems separate of each other. Mine has SNR Margin issues causing disconnections and brief periods of paused internet connectivity and my brothers sync decreasing.
If we had a bad line back in 2011 and a line that had crackling on it in Nov perhaps the engineer only really fixed the problem he made by pulling all the wires out and putting our lines back onto 2 lines which have issues, perhaps even issues themselves and crosstalk with each other or something. It just seems incredibly coincidental that both lines develop problems after the engineer has pulled up all the wires, especially if one of those pairs had already been discarded and a spare used.
Here is a picture of the box, not entirely sure what it is you wanted to see. I can take more of certain parts or particular wires if needed.
What would be really nice is you coming back with the phrase ‘there’s your problem’ with a big arrow pointing a wire or plastic clip  

[#9]

That actually looks pretty much what I'd hoped (in one respect) to see. Those "clips" are called "jelly crimps".
The socket plate on the box was nothing more than a "cover" instead of a blank plate. (Possibly an original master when there was only one line - it might have a yellow capacitor on the back it, if so).
Just to confirm my assumptions, the incoming BT cable is one of the ones to the right, the other to the right goes to your room carrying the Plusnet and the Sky, the one to the left goes to the "main" house phone socket and then with the extension to your brother's room.
If my assumptions are wrong, something is working in a weird and wonderful way.
The incoming BT cable is a 3-pair CW1308 standard cable, and each pair (Blue, Orange and Green) carries one of the lines.
The cable to your room is a 2-pair CW1308 standard cable, one carrying the Plusnet line, the other the Sky line.
The cable to the left, all be it a 3-pair, only the Blue pair is used to the "main" house phone socket.
The only thing slightly disconcerting, is a short spare bit of wire that seems to have a bare end, coming form the jelly crimp in the bottom LH corner of the picture, the one with the White+blue trace wires. Just tuck that bare end into any spare bit of opening on the same crimp, so it won't touch anything else.
Gently curl all those wires back up, in their pairs, and tuck them into the box.
I'd say that the problem(s) are definitely external. When you look at that joint outside on the incoming underground cable and from what you've described happened with the engineer, my guess is that it's grotty aluminium cable which can get brittle with age and bits broke off. He's had to put a joint in with a new bit of cable to the BT66B connection box above, where the joint to the cable is that comes into the house.
(At least the underground cable looks like it might be in a duct, so should BT ever need to replace it, it might hopefully be straight forward job,,,,,hmm, famous last words).
Call of nature, so I'll post back shortly with suggested courses of action.

[#10]

It doesn’t have anything on the back its just a plastic cover. It was used as a main socket for the house before we moved in, back in 2005.
Your assumptions are correct.
That bare wire is in fact a trick of the angle the pic was shot at, it bends round goes behind the jelly crimp then comes up and into the crimp, there is no bare end.
I think I have many questions now in regards what to do.
Something I have been wondering about, thinking about the worse outcome that might happen. Is it possible to book a BT engineer like you would a plumber or electrician to come out and do some work for you? As right now I’m starting to think if the main line that comes up to the house already has 1 dead pair on it and possibly 2 more now with issues it just seems like a matter of time before the other pairs inside go wrong as well. Can I have an engineer come out and put in a brand-new cable up to the house to connect to the BT66B connection box regardless of fault?
The follow up question to that is: If the cable was replaced and everything started to work fine afterwards wouldn’t that prove the cable was naff therefore I wouldn’t need to then pay for it since it’s their responsibility?
The other scenario I’ve been thinking about is where BT does send out an engineer only for the engineer to perform a few tests, shrug and say things are working ok then i get charged for the call out. If at that point I’m getting charged can I not then insist they actual do what I want like putting in a new cable to the house? Because if I’m paying for an expensive shrug, at that point I feel like I should be able to get my money’s worth. If this is possible I would then ask the same question again of if after putting in the new line to the house the problems all go away can I then turn back around and say ‘see there was a fault with the cable therefore I’m not paying?’
Another concern I have is that regardless of whether the lines are affecting each other or not I’ve still got problems on both of them. My experience with BT engineers has not been good when dealing with anything other than a very narrow set of constraints on what they are allowed/can do. When the engineer pulled all the wires out I half expected him to tell me he didn’t have the work order to be allowed to put it all back together again since it wasn’t part of the described job. I therefore fear a similar thing happening as what did in Dec. The engineer comes, does something, but then only has the work order to test the line for which ever ISP sent him out. My understanding is also that any testing they might do if not sent by an ISP would be limited to making sure the voice side of things works.
Is there some way to get an engineer to come out that is able to fully test the lines for both voice and broadband at the same time and have the flexibility to do what’s needed to fix the problems on both lines? From my previous experiences it seems like this is an impossibility though I’d be delighted if I’m completely wrong.
Would having sky on LLU also complicate matters? Running a new cable to the house would ‘interfere’ with Sky’s connection to.

[#11]

You won't have to pay for anything as long as faults are identified.
Don't assume that any current faults are on that cable and even if they are, and if the cable has to be replaced because all unused pairs are faulty, then it will be Openreach's responsibility to make sure that all circuits on the cable are working correctly after cable replacement. They are well aware of what circuits are on any cable, it's well documented (usually!). One circuit being LLU is irrelevant.
The trick is to report a problem in the "correct way" so that Openreach can't use the "No Fault Found" excuse for trying to bill the ISP/CP who would possibly then bill the customer. But in any event, if there is no immediately obvious fault with remote testing, and no obvious persistent symptoms of a fault, it's debatable as to whether it's wise to insist on an Engineer at that time. You are probably jumping the gun a little here.
As you don't know where the fault is, it would be daft on trying to insist that they replace a particular cable and I doubt if you would even be successful in any event.
All ISPs have the capability to run Copper Tests on the Line, whether they are the Line Rental provider or not. They normally only do so when there is a proven Broadband fault, or if the Line rental provider as well, when there is a phone fault.
It would probably be best if just one of you deal with all this, whichever of you is the most technically competent (you I'm guessing, but you might have to pretend you are your brother at times).
Start by phoning Zen. Explain to them that there had been problems with the broadband with it frequently dropping sync especially when the phone rang, and although that seems to have stopped for the moment, the performance is well below what it was. Explain that there has also been ongoing problems with the phone service trying to hear the caller on the other end being one of the problems, but you are having difficulty explaining to this chap at BT in a foreign call centre. But additionally, when lent your brother's modem/router to see if it was a modem/router problem, before you had chance to alter the login details on it, it had connected to his Plusnet service on the Zen line and you could browse - he has Plusnet on a separate line in the house. (That should get their full attention).
Ask Zen if they could run some copper tests to see if there is any obvious faults that you could report to BT. If they agree, and find any faults ask them what they are and write it down! Ask them is there a report that they can make that BT Retail will see when you phone to report it to them.
If Zen don't want to co-operate, well you tried. You can next try reporting a phone fault on the Zen line via BT's website. On thing you must do if/when the opportunity arises during the reporting is make it clear that the problems are Intermittent. Whatever, it should generate an automated test on the line. Unfortunately this can miss some types of fault, but as long as it finds a fault then that's fine.
If that fails, then you are on a bit of a sticky wicket on that line for the moment, so we'll come back to it again, depending on the outcome of things on the Plusnet line.
I'd guess, for the moment, it may be best to see if one of the Plusnet guys that frequents then forum can pick this up tomorrow and see if they could get some copper tests run and take from there if a fault is found.
If all of that comes to nothing, it's a case of getting a bit OCD with any of the fault symptoms as and when they occur, and trying to get a test run/report a fault whilst the symptoms are present.. One thing to pay careful attention to is any audible noise on the phone line.
HTH.
Post back with any queries and progress.

[#12]

Hi,
I've just been running a few tests on your line. This test covers xDSL and your Copper Line (Plusnet Line) - I've not found any faults at all. I would suggest speaking to Zen and asking them to run a DSL Test and a Copper Line Test to see if that throws anything up.
As ever, if you need anything further from us, let us know and we are more than happy to help

[#13]

Thanks for your help Chris, let's hope something comes up on the Zen line.