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Can I connect my wireless router to my network hub via Wi-Fi

Pictureman1
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Posts: 48
Registered: ‎09-01-2008

Re: Can I connect my wireless router to my network hub via Wi-Fi

Hi Anotherone
Just re-read your post a realised I had not answered all your points, 3) is at the master socket (wall plate still attached) 4) is the test socket (master socket removed).  With regard the internal wiring it seems to be standard 2 pair BT style cable with Blue/white - white/blue on terminals 2 & 5 I removed orange/white - white/orange and coiled them back in the spare space in the box.
Hi Jelv
Just about to post the above when advised of your comment, yes iPlate was in place at 3) and internal wireing totally isolated in 4)
Many thanks.
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Re: Can I connect my wireless router to my network hub via Wi-Fi

Hi Pictureman1,
This is where I have to disagree with jelv about the removal of the i-plate, there is absolutely no point in doing that with the wiring standard in place.
The only justification for doing that would be if errors level monitored over a lengthy period of time were at a lower level with the i-plate removed than with it in place. Something I do not believe you will ever find on a long line.
That does not mean that it's OK to connect the bell wire, it should remain disconnected. Is it disconnected at the Master socket end as well as the extension socket end? The Master socket end is the most important.
But as the above results are the results from your previous thread, I do agree with jelv, as I would have said it myself, results from the speedtester are pointless at this stage. The thing to be looking at is sync speed, noise margin, attenuation and errors.
I assume the first set of figures quoted in each test is sync speed? Were they all done on the same day in daylight within a relatively short period of time?
Which of those modem/routers of yours give the most detailed DSL stats?
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Re: Can I connect my wireless router to my network hub via Wi-Fi

One of the problems of repeating the information already given is sometimes one gets mixed up.
In the earlier thread you said that test 4) was in the Master socket and indeed those words are included in 4) "The following at the master socket"
But in the last but one line of post #13 you say - 3) is "at the wall socket at the location of the  incoming cable" - in 3) itself  - you refer to the "entry point wall socket" which you've confirmed by which you meant the Test Socket
And then in this last but one line you said - 4) "is now attached to the BT Test socket - which I believe is the typing error, you meant Master socket?
So really it would be good to clarify which was actually which, and I assume that when plugged into the Master socket, the extension socket is live (ie. wiring connected).
But anyway, the differences between the two is so marginal.
One thing I do notice however, is that in test 2) the attenuation is somewhat larger, quoted as 69dB, whereas in test 1) it's 63dB and both these tests were at the extension socket. There is also a difference in the noise margins. All this makes me a bit uneasy. Were these test carried out on the same day, at significantly different times or may be after dark?
By the way, I'm not trying to be awkward, just trying to get a better understanding of what may be happening  etc.
What I will suggest is that some further tests are carried out, with just one modem/router and one computer - but don't rush to do them yet, don't want you disconnecting things any more than you already have been as we don't want the Exchange DLM to think you have a dropping connection. There's a couple of other checks to think about first.
One is, do you have an IDC tool at all? That's what is used to push wires into the IDC terminals - no matter if you haven't, but the one thing you must not do is use a screwdriver in the jaws of the terminal as you risk opening them and they won't make proper contact with the wire. You can push down either side of the jaws with any suitable size implement, I've even heard of tweezers being used. The reason I'm asking is I'm considering the possibility of a bad connection for that extension at one end or the other because of those attenuation figures.
The second is line noise - which can be caused by a bad joint (external) and can affect attenuation as well as SNRM.
Can you hear/have you heard any crackling or other noises on the line when using the phone? Have you had any problems with incoming or outgoing calls?
I'll wait for your reply and comments before making further suggestions.
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Re: Can I connect my wireless router to my network hub via Wi-Fi

With 63dB of attenuation you might hope to get a slightly higher sync rate, say around 2.0 instead of 1.7 but in the first instance let's concentrate on what you can do for yourself.
If result 4 was in the Test socket with the face plate of the Master Socket removed and you checked that that really did cause all your telephone extensions to go dead (proving that they are all correctly wired into the faceplate) then the figures you measured for sync rate, noise margin and attenuation are (in my opinion) the best you are going to get from what you can do yourself (the speed test result is irrelevant, as Jelv explained).
I think Anotherone is saying you might get a better result with the faceplate of the Master Socket removed and the iPlate plugged in to the test socket, then the router connected to that.  He might be right, give it a try.
Anyway, whichever configurations gives you the best figures for sync rate, noise margin (and attenuation), what you then need to do is to find a working configuration that retains those best figures but allows your telephones to work!  I think if I understand correctly then reconnecting the faceplate and plugging into that (with the iPlate in place) is what you did in test 3 and that did not seem to make your figures any worse.  But they clearly were worse when you had the router in your extension socket (tests 1 & 2).
If my interpretation of your data is correct then we have arrived back at your original supposition, that you need to move your router to the Master Socket and find a way of connecting your devices to it.
The other line of attack to improve your broadband performance is to get a BT Openreach engineer to visit.  You can only do that for free if you have a fault and at this stage the only obvious possible fault would be if your telephone line is audibly noisy.  I'd be surprised if it was because I would expect that to go hand-in-hand with a lower sync rate than you are achieving, but it's worth checking.
   
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Re: Can I connect my wireless router to my network hub via Wi-Fi

Having Openreach attend, on the assumption that you had an external fault to get one there, would have no beneficial effect on any internal issues. The engineer won't even look at them, so you can bin that idea.
And I've already asked about line noise, and that needs to be clarified before anything further.
Secondly, the tests to date suggest something not quite right with the extension testing or the connections (or something external). There is no problem with the standard of wire, it is CW1308 so there is absolutely no reason why the performance at the extension socket should be worse than the master socket if there aren't  internal connection issues.
Thirdly, if there is an internal connection issue or similar, it will still affect the broadband even when you are plugged into the master socket.
In my last post I clearly indicated that it was important to establish the current facts before messing around with any further testing which will need to be done in a controlled manner if any benefits are to be obtained. So suggestions like "give it a try" are not being very helpful. Also stating "If my interpretation of your data is correct" you imply there is only one solution, which is certainly not true.
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Re: Can I connect my wireless router to my network hub via Wi-Fi

I am worried that we are making something that is fundamentally straightforward appear complex.  I tried to help with my previous post but judging by Anotherone's response, I failed.
There are two fundamental things you can do yourself:
1) Plug your router into the test socket and look at the stats.  Then find a working configuration that gives you the same stats.
2) If you have reason to believe your external telephone line is faulty, push to get it fixed.
In this instance, unless Pictureman1 can hear noise on the line then I see no reason to believe the line is faulty.
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Re: Can I connect my wireless router to my network hub via Wi-Fi

Well as he hasn't answered yet Reed Richards we don't know. And what you fundamentally fail to appreciate is that on a line of this length, possibly with moderate to high errors & on 20CN, willy nilly disconnecting plugging in here and there could well provoke DLM to push up the Target Noise Margin with the consequential result of reduced speed.
So perhaps you could stop muddying the waters so that we can clarify precisely what the current situation was and find out which modem/router is going to give us the best detailed stats. I've spelled it out in a previous post about the stats we need to look at (as in fact did jelv), how much clearer can I make it! 
It seems quite obvious to me that Pictureman1 would prefer to have his modem/router at his extension socket where he'll carry on getting the Ethernet connection and the wireless coverage that he wants, whereas he has so far been given the impression that the only way he is going to get the best ADSL connection is plugging in at the master socket, which is complete garbage. If the extension wiring is up to standard, there is no reason why the same performance cannot be achieved at an extension socket as at the master.
Pictureman1
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Posts: 48
Registered: ‎09-01-2008

Re: Can I connect my wireless router to my network hub via Wi-Fi

Hi to you all,
Sorry not to have replied earlier, been out most of the day and again this evening, did have a quick look at the posts in between but its quite a lot to absorbe intended to at least reply once I got back but only just able to do so.  Sorry if I have to make this brief but I will have to get organosed for a further day out tomorrowincluding the evening.
Working from the last reply first, my service is 21CN not 20CN as I understand it
I will need to look at the modem/routers to confirm what stats I can obtain, will advise asoon as possible
Yes it would be more convienient to keep the router where it is but if realisticall a move is easier then I would be happy to do so.
I have carried out a basic noise check, dial 1 and listen to the line no apperant problem, if there is a better way then I would be happy to know, so no I have no reason to believe I have a line fault.
One point I would be intrested for your comments on, the ext skt is on a wall wireing droppind down from ceiling height at what is probably the same location as the cables from the meter rise to the electrical distribution baord, what is the likely effect of this?
Sorry but I have to close this down now to get myself organised for tomorrow, will have a more careful study of all your comments ASAP and respond then.
Many thanks

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Re: Can I connect my wireless router to my network hub via Wi-Fi

I see a lot of installations in a lot of houses; frequently the extension wiring is of poor quality.  But with good wire correctly connected then you are absolutely correct, Anotherone.  There must be something wrong at the moment, however, judging by the inferior results Pictureman achieved. 
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Re: Can I connect my wireless router to my network hub via Wi-Fi

Hi Pictureman1,
my apologies about the 20CN Embarrassed  it is obvious that you are on 21CN, I'm afraid it was a bit of a rushed post and I was on auto-pilot -  a lot of the poorer and slower connections tend to be on 20CN exchanges and also at the forefront of mind was jelv's correct remark about profile's taking time to catch up (which on a 20CN can be 5 days for small changes + Plusnet current Line Speed updates). However the rest of the content of that post is unaffected by that minor faux-pas  Wink
Apologies that you've got a lot to read through Undecided  things aren't always as 'simple' as one would like them to be. I'll post back a bit later about the wiring related issues you've mentioned.
To do a more exhaustive check for line noise dial 17070 and select option 2. It's always better to use a corded phone for such checks but not a speakerphone. Cordless phones can introduce some noises of their own, not overly a problem if you recognise which is which. Older analogue cordless phones are more of a no-no as they are vulnerable to interference and are insecure anyway.
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Re: Can I connect my wireless router to my network hub via Wi-Fi

I was actually referring to the fact that Plusnet only update 5 times a day and even that has an inbuilt delay of an hour between stage 1 and stage 2 of the process. So, as unfortunately a of people do, running a speed test 5 minutes after you've changed something and expecting a meaningful result just doesn't work. The only thing that is valid is the IP Profile which is reported by the further diagnostics test.
jelv (a.k.a Spoon Whittler)
   Why I have left Plusnet (warning: long post!)   
Broadband: Andrews & Arnold Home::1 (FTTC 80/20)
Line rental: Pulse 8 Home Line Rental (£14.40/month)
Mobile: iD mobile (£4/month)
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Re: Can I connect my wireless router to my network hub via Wi-Fi

I appreciate that, but you can see how my mind was working  Huh
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Re: Can I connect my wireless router to my network hub via Wi-Fi

Quote from: Pictureman1
One point I would be intrested for your comments on, the ext skt is on a wall wireing droppind down from ceiling height at what is probably the same location as the cables from the meter rise to the electrical distribution baord, what is the likely effect of this?

As a general rule, it's undesirable to have the phone line running parallel to mains power cable if they are within about 6" of each other. If the run length involved is say only a couple of inches it might have an insignificant effect. But once you start getting run lengths greater than  6 or 9" sort of length, there is a much greater probability of interference on the mains being induced in the phone line. It will depend on the nature of the interference as to what sort of effect it could have.
So at the end of the day it just depends on how far apart they are and what's in between them.
I take it from your description, the phone wire drops from ceiling height to - would that be a few inches above floor level, or part way up the wall?
The electric cables are running from the meter - what sort of height is this - up the wall to the Distribution board - again what sort of height is that?
Are the electric cables separated from the phone line by the wall or just buried in the plaster and how far apart are they actually from the phone line?
How are your DIY type skills - is re-routing the phone line with new cable (if need be) a practical sort of thing - dropping from celing height does it come through the ceiling - is it under a floor above? Apart from the obvious effects on decor, is it something that you could tackle? 
As you have an NTE5a Master socket the extension wiring is yours to do with as you wish.
Pictureman1
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Posts: 48
Registered: ‎09-01-2008

Re: Can I connect my wireless router to my network hub via Wi-Fi

Hi All
Just able to get back to read your replys, decided to reply by name and reply number so try to keep things straightforward.
jelv reply 14  you said
Quote
(only the IP Profile reported by the diagnostic test is of any value)
can I run this diagnostic my self if so please can you confirm correct proceedure
                     
Quote
Was test 3 with the iPlate in place?
 yes iPlate was in place and 4 was in the test socket
Anotherone  reply 16  
Quote
 removal of the i-plate, there is absolutely no point in doing that with the wiring standard in place.
I had assumed that this was being replaced with a vDSL filter plate
                                     
Quote
Which of those modem/routers of yours give the most detailed DSL stats?
both give the 4 basic stats of Data rate, Margin, Attenuation & Power I am not aware of any other date available
                        reply 17  
Quote
4) was in the Master socket and indeed those words are included in 4) "The following at the master socket"
yes that was lack of familiarity with correct terminology 3) is at the wall socket where the telephone would connect to I believe this is correctly called the master socket, whilst 4) is the socket revealed on romoval of this plate (and iPlate) to reveal the hidden socket now I believe more correctly caled the test socket.
                                       
Quote
2) the attenuation is somewhat larger, quoted as 69dB, whereas in test 1) it's 63dB
I have since noticed that myself since in every other case it is 69 I can only assume that I mode a reading or transcription error, also both sets of figures in 2) were also taken using the same t/p extemnsion socket with any changes being with the cables at the router end, I do have an IDC tool but based on the checks when removing the bell wires I am quite happy on this point.
                                       
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Were these test carried out on the same day, at significantly different times or may
yes between about 10 a.m. and 4 p.m. well within daylight hours.
                                       
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The second is line noise
carried out the quiet line test this evening seem fine, but my daughter who has much better hearing than me is here tomorrow so wilt get a second opinion.
RR             reply 18    
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With 63dB of attenuation
suspect that is an error as I said eearlier, rechecked it tonight and at at the test conditions that was recorded (standard configuration) it was 69.
                                       
Quote
If result 4 was in the Test socket with the face plate of the Master Socket removed and you checked that that really did cause all your telephone extensions to go dead
pretty confident about that but will double check next time I am inthat location
Anotherone   reply 27  
Quote
As a general rule, it's undesirable to have the phone line running parallel to mains power cable
can't be certain of course but based on their relative positions it is highly likely that the T/P and mains are running parellel to each other and in close proximity over a 4-5 ft span plus we do not know what is happening in the floor cavity where a ring main heads off in the direction of the T/P master socket.

Well I hope I have answered all the queries raised, having gone through all the replies I am getting a feel for what I feel is the most suitable way forward but plan to sleep on it to collect my thoughts, I will then come back tomorrow with proposal based on all your comments and suggestions.
Thank you all
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Re: Can I connect my wireless router to my network hub via Wi-Fi

This is the BTw Performance test (ignore the red preamble except make sure no other programs are using the Internet) and at the end of the first run, click the Further Diagnostics button, enter just your Phone number and Run the Further Diagnostics Test.
Although there really is little point in running the test at this time as it is the Modem/router stats that we need to look at. In any event the profile on 21CN is 88.2% of the sync speed.
Which model is each modem/router?
I wouldn't worry too much about exactly where the cables run for now unless some later test results show that it needs to be considered.