topic Re: The end of analogue phone lines.... in Tech Help - Software/Hardware etc

The end of analogue phone lines....

markhawkin — Fri, 12 Feb 2021 15:47:40 GMT

Not directly a router issue but likely to require equipment changes, can I recommend a good article on the end of analogue phone lines.

https://www.draytek.co.uk/information/blog/the-end-of-analogue-phone-lines-pt1

The second half shows what routers will need to become to preserve the current phone line service

https://www.draytek.co.uk/information/blog/the-end-of-analogue-phone-lines-pt2

Re: The end of analogue phone lines....

dvorak — Fri, 12 Feb 2021 16:02:36 GMT

Moderators Note

This topic has been moved from My Router to Tech Help

Re: The end of analogue phone lines....

Baldrick1 — Fri, 12 Feb 2021 16:51:49 GMT

I wonder if this date will be like that for the switching off of FM radio transmissions? It must be 10 years since this was first announced. It just needed the majority to switch to DAB. I understand that last year the Government agreed to the continuation of Ofcom issuing new 10 year transmission licences because so many were still using the FM service.

Re: The end of analogue phone lines....

jab1 — Fri, 12 Feb 2021 16:56:52 GMT

@Baldrick1 Probably highly likely - undertakings of this size and complexity never go to plan. I know some telecom company in Sheffield said the city would have full fibre by the end of 2019 - I'm still waiting to find out if anyone in Sheffield has got it yet.

Re: The end of analogue phone lines....

RobPN — Sat, 13 Feb 2021 11:14:25 GMT

@jab1 wrote:

... I know some telecom company in Sheffield said the city would have full fibre by the end of 2019 - I'm still waiting to find out if anyone in Sheffield has got it yet.

Apparently there is some FTTP in the area @jab1

Check this map which should open showing the Sheffield area and Openreach native FTTP selected (other FTTP networks may be available);

https://labs.thinkbroadband.com/local/broadband-map#10/53.4324/-1.2778/geafttp/

And the following links (newly posted on TBB) might be useful too as they indicate which areas/exchanges are presently being built by Openreach and those expected to start within 3 months;

https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/fibre-first Edit 2: scroll down to 'FTTP Fibre First Build Programme'

https://www.openreach.com/content/dam/openreach/openreach-dam-files/images/fibre-broadband/fibre-first/Openreach_Full_Fibre_Build_Programme_Feb_2021.pdf

Edit: typo

Re: The end of analogue phone lines....

jab1 — Sat, 13 Feb 2021 11:44:54 GMT

Very useful and informative, @RobPN - thanks, but looking at that map, yes we do have one (largish) area which has FTTP, but no indication of when, if ever, the majority of the City is to get it.

I am not aware of any other FTTP providers thinking of improving on BT's performance - certainly nothing appearing in local media, anyway, and the 'Fibre First' link doesn't show any planned (i.e. thought of) work by 2024!

Re: The end of analogue phone lines....

Baldrick1 — Sat, 13 Feb 2021 12:34:34 GMT

It is indeed informative as it shows the vast swathes of towns and villages across the country that are not in the plan to upgrade in the time between now and within 1 year of the alleged switch off date!

Re: The end of analogue phone lines....

jab1 — Sat, 13 Feb 2021 12:39:53 GMT

In other words, @Baldrick1 - Pie in the sky thinking, and gives absolutely no confidence in government - or BT - assurances to the contrary.

Re: The end of analogue phone lines....

Baldrick1 — Sat, 13 Feb 2021 12:49:26 GMT

If only the money and resources being wasted building new train sets that would take a few minutes off a journey if only there was an accessible station was given to someone with the skills of whoever has organised the roll out of COVID jabs then such a target might be achievable.

Re: The end of analogue phone lines....

RobPN — Sat, 13 Feb 2021 13:09:22 GMT

You probably realised @jab1 , but comparing the two maps, the 'Fibre First' map (2nd link) only shows info regarding that program, whereas I believe the TBB map shows TBB forum members known to be already subscribing to FTTP, and in reality there can be some area overlap between the two different data sets which may not be apparent.

e.g. the Fibre First map for Cornwall (where I know there is already a lot of OR native FTTP installed) shows only a couple of areas 'Work in progress' and three 'In plan'. One of those two 'Work in progress' areas already has a fair bit of OR native FTTP so I suspect that is an instance of OR 'infilling' their FTTP coverage by overbuilding the FTTC areas.

Comparing the maps for Sheffield seems to show a similar 'overlap' (for want of a better word), so I'm wondering if you look closely at the TBB one, can you see any grey (black if multiples overlapping) dots showing FTTP connections anywhere near your own area?

Sometimes there may be small clusters of OR native FTTP enabled due to one or more punters stumping up cash for OR to intall FTTPoD (oD = 'on Demand' - requiring cash up front from customers).

Re: The end of analogue phone lines....

idonno — Sat, 13 Feb 2021 13:16:21 GMT

@jab1 wrote: I am not aware of any other FTTP providers thinking of improving on BT's performance -

It really does depend on where you live. I looked at OR plans / info and found nothing of note. And then comes along a totally unknown company (to me at any rate) that bypass OR and are installing FTTP in what is relatively speaking, a rural location.The problem is the scheme is for rural people, not those living in towns. Outside of towns, OR isn't the only player around. Looking up the list of suppliers I was quite surprised to see how many companies are involved with installing FTTP.

But call wise, I think a fair number of people have already moved on. I can't recall the last time I used a landline to make a call. Its mobile all the time. I haven't had the analogue phone connected for years - I won't miss its demise!

Re: The end of analogue phone lines....

markhawkin — Sat, 13 Feb 2021 13:34:56 GMT

One key point.

While the end of analogue phone lines assists the roll out of FTTP the two are not absolutely linked.

The "stop sell" of analogue lines (on an exchange by exchange basis) doesn't mean that that exchange will be an all FTTP area.

Copper line delivered "Single Order Transitional Access Product (SOTAP)" (ADSL without a phone service) and "Single Order Generic Ethernet Access (SOGEA)" (VDSL without a phone service) will continue and with a suitable SIP adaptor will provide an "analogue like" phone service.

The "stop sell" for analogue lines prevents new analogue lines being ordered.

The more significant date is the withdrawal of analogue phone services at exchanges which will mean the existing analogue services cease . That withdrawal will cause considerable disruption for domestic and business users.

If you are interested in the process, this is worth a read:

https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/wlrwithdrawal/wlrwithdrawal/downloads/WLR_withdrawal_FAQs_v10.docx

Re: The end of analogue phone lines....

jab1 — Sat, 13 Feb 2021 14:02:15 GMT

@idonno wrote:

@jab1 wrote: I am not aware of any other FTTP providers thinking of improving on BT's performance -

It really does depend on where you live. I looked at OR plans / info and found nothing of note. And then comes along a totally unknown company (to me at any rate) that bypass OR and are installing FTTP in what is relatively speaking, a rural location.The problem is the scheme is for rural people, not those living in towns. Outside of towns, OR isn't the only player around. Looking up the list of suppliers I was quite surprised to see how many companies are involved with installing FTTP.

But call wise, I think a fair number of people have already moved on. I can't recall the last time I used a landline to make a call. Its mobile all the time. I haven't had the analogue phone connected for years - I won't miss its demise!

@idonno I was being a bit 'selfish', just thinking of the plans, or lack of, for my own area. According to the documents referenced in @RobPN 's post above, there are no BT plans to provide FTTP services to the vast majority of Sheffield residents or businesses who are outside the relatively small area in which the service is shown as already available.

Certain areas of the city do have an alternative, in the guise of Virgin Media, but that is only because Yorkshire Cable/Telewest picked 'easy' to cable areas and did them, before running out of finance and being rescued by VM.

The problem where one supplier totally takes over an area is that, as I currently understand it, you have no alternative but to go with them, and have no alternative - i.e. they have a monopoly, and can squeeze you for as much as they like, so you have a monopoly situation - IMHO, not a good scenario.

Call wise, I could live with no land line - I already make all my calls on the mobile, although if I suspect an '0800' call might be a long one, I will use the land line, merely because the headset for that is more comfortable than the mobile one.

Re: The end of analogue phone lines....

jab1 — Sat, 13 Feb 2021 14:05:41 GMT

@RobPN I'll reply to your post #10 later, got some other jobs to do, and need a rest from the laptop, anyway.

Re: The end of analogue phone lines....

RobPN — Sat, 13 Feb 2021 14:22:46 GMT

Not OR, but looking at the TBB map again @jab1 and ticking all the different providers check-boxes in turn shows that there's a solid FTTP coverage of an area of Sheffield city centre by a company named Pine Media.

https://labs.thinkbroadband.com/local/broadband-map#13/53.3810/-1.4275/pinemedia/

Edit: No worries @jab1, I missed your post above.

Re: The end of analogue phone lines....

jab1 — Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:40:43 GMT

@RobPN wrote:

You probably realised @jab1 , but comparing the two maps, the 'Fibre First' map (2nd link) only shows info regarding that program, whereas I believe the TBB map shows TBB forum members known to be already subscribing to FTTP, and in reality there can be some area overlap between the two different data sets which may not be apparent.

e.g. the Fibre First map for Cornwall (where I know there is already a lot of OR native FTTP installed) shows only a couple of areas 'Work in progress' and three 'In plan'. One of those two 'Work in progress' areas already has a fair bit of OR native FTTP so I suspect that is an instance of OR 'infilling' their FTTP coverage by overbuilding the FTTC areas.

Comparing the maps for Sheffield seems to show a similar 'overlap' (for want of a better word), so I'm wondering if you look closely at the TBB one, can you see any grey (black if multiples overlapping) dots showing FTTP connections anywhere near your own area?

Sometimes there may be small clusters of OR native FTTP enabled due to one or more punters stumping up cash for OR to intall FTTPoD (oD = 'on Demand' - requiring cash up front from customers).

Yup - just expanded the TBB map as far as possible, and there are a couple of grey/black dots. Knowing exactly where they are (new builds on a previously greenfield site), I suspect they are pole-mounted fibre cables fed from the nearest green box - we can get 80/20 FTTC here, although I'm only going for 40/10, as I can't justify the higher speeds based on my usage. I'll probably only notice the difference when I have to do the very occasional big program update or my Linux machine moves up a build.

Re: The end of analogue phone lines....

jab1 — Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:54:40 GMT

@RobPN wrote:

Not OR, but looking at the TBB map again @jab1 and ticking all the different providers check-boxes in turn shows that there's a solid FTTP coverage of an area of Sheffield city centre by a company named Pine Media.

https://labs.thinkbroadband.com/local/broadband-map#13/53.3810/-1.4275/pinemedia/

Edit: No worries @jab1, I missed your post above.

I know of Pine Media - they are a small company set up originally to serve places like the Town Hall, council offices, hotels w.h.y. in the city centre then expanded into the area on the map, but I think, then ran out of capital to spend on further real growth outside this area. I know my computer service guy, who is based in the city centre used them for a while, but for some reason became disillusioned and moved to Zen when he switched offices.

Re: The end of analogue phone lines....

Baldrick1 — Sun, 14 Feb 2021 11:32:28 GMT

So following on from the most informative post by @RobPN it's a question of how you define a digital phone line, or more precisely, when is digital not digital.

I am a simple soul and to me a digital link has 0s and 1s passing down it. FTTC is not digital over the last section from the cabinet to the home, as in its name it is multiband ac signals over a broad frequency band being passed over a line designed for narrow band ac voice transmission. In other words, it is a bodge, be it a clever bodge, designed to delay the job of doing the job properly and taking fibre all the way to the property.

This much hailed change to digital phones looks like what is being proposed is the further roll out of this dead end bodge to all subscribers who are not on the select list of those who will get FTTP.

The only possible salvation will be if the two technologies run together and broadband subscribers get FTTP and the FTTC infrastructure is used only for phone only lines rather than we all having to pay for the further expansion of FTTC.

Re: The end of analogue phone lines....

markhawkin — Mon, 15 Feb 2021 00:01:57 GMT

There is always a "physical" layer in any digital system. This is Layer 1 in the OSI 7 layer model.

For both optical and copper delivered digital services there is something "analogue" in the system.

Clearly FTTP is the desired outcome as that facilitates various possible services once it is in place.

By some means "the market" will need to be manipulated to achieve universal coverage of FTTP. This could be by regulation, subsidy or other "encouragements" but it will be needed.

Looking on the bright side, the implementation will provide employment.

I'm old enough to remember the conversion to North Sea gas and the conversion of all copper phone lines to fibre is of a similar magnitude.

Re: The end of analogue phone lines....

Baldrick1 — Mon, 15 Feb 2021 15:00:19 GMT

@markhawkin wrote:

There is always a "physical" layer in any digital system. This is Layer 1 in the OSI 7 layer model.

For both optical and copper delivered digital services there is something "analogue" in the system.

Speech is comprised of different frequencies and amplitudes so of course there is 'analogue' in the system but quoting 7 layer models does not explain why this analogue conversion needs to stray outside of the telephone handset.

I am just disappointed that rather than linking all homes with a proper digital connection the 'Grand' short sighted plan as far as the majority of the country is concerned (and for the forseeable future) is to continue and even possibly expand the FTTC bodge.

I guess that the driver is short term profit rather than applying high level system engineering to identify and install suitable infrastructure to meet this country's long term needs. Maybe wireless will make this whole, over complex, expensive to maintain mess obsolete anyway; and that's the future?