topic Re: Profile resetting is just an urban myth! in Plusnet Feedback

Profile resetting is just an urban myth!

hadden — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 11:03:17 GMT

I've been here before and I expect to be here again, as PN says this is not supported and more
This summer, after 6 months of patiently waiting, my target SNR finally dropped to 6dB and I was able to get a 4500 kbps profile. However, to keep it stable, I have a manually set SNR slightly higher than 6dB and so have had a consistent 4000 kbps profile.
Thanks to some load balancing last week, my ADSL got upset and disconnected and reconnected in the evening resulting in a chronic reconnection speed.
This starts the usual cascade of problems... BT profile drops down right away, very shortly followed by the PN profile, because the system decides that a disconnection must absolutely mean that the line is bad. Wrong!
So I manually set the SNR to try and recover some of the speed. However, this only resulted in my target SNR increasing to 12dB!
So, I tried resetting my router once per day (mid-morning) for three days and waited to see if the relevant equipment would realise the true situation about my connection, ie there is not a fault.
On the last of these I managed to tweak the SNR enough to get connected at 4000 kbps. Then waited...

So yesterday was three days from the last router reset... has my profile been increased as it should do!
I ran the BT Speed tester... it confirmed the connection speed was still 4000 kbps and also showed the the profile had now returned back up to 3500kbps.
Now I just needed the PN profile to catch up... can't be long now?
So, today is 24 hours since the BT profile updated and the PN profile is still showing 3000 kbps.
I was just considering posting here to have a moan about that a few minutes ago, when my router chose that moment to reset. Coincidence?
No, it was a pre-emptive strike from the enemy! My SNR has just been increased to 15dB!
By what logic does 4 days of consistent connection get rewarded with an SNR increase!
Is there really a logical system controlling the profiles or is that just an urban myth?

Re: Profile resetting is just an urban myth!

LittleReggie — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 11:49:03 GMT

i have had my bt profile drop before without the plusnet profile following suit. up to now, it has always caught up about a day after my bt profile has returned to "normal". it does seem to be a little inconsistent in this regard.
if i understand correctly, LLU adsl connections do not have line profiles at all - the speed you get is relative to whatever your current sync speed is - wouldnt that be nice!! the only thing the LLU ISPs seem to be able to adjust is your target SNR. can someone confirm this?

Re: Profile resetting is just an urban myth!

Mand — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 16:41:32 GMT

@JohnJ, when looking at some line profiling issues I think logic is a matter of interpretation!
In any case, I've updated your profile to 4000.
What're you syncing at now?

Re: Profile resetting is just an urban myth!

Mand — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 16:42:57 GMT

@LittleReggie, IP profiles and such are not relevant to LLU connections, you get pretty much the speed you're syncing at (minus overheads of course).

Re: Profile resetting is just an urban myth!

hadden — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 17:02:41 GMT

@Mand
I will try to be subjective when interpreting the implied logic
I'm not confident about doing a reset at this time of day, however, as you said so... I have done it.
Before resetting the router I was connected at 3864 kbps...
Afetr resetting the router.. it reconnected at 2528 kbps with SNR @ 15dB
So I would expect the BT equipment would use that as an excuse to set their profile at 2000 kbps
I therefore did a manual over-ride on the target SNR to see if I could recover the situation a bit, but could only bring it up to 10.6dB with a sync speed of 3264 kbps, so BT might let me get 2500 kbps if they ignore the first connection
Thanks for setting the profile at PlusNet, but I think I'm also fighting an artificially high target SNR. Is there anything you can help with there?

Re: Profile resetting is just an urban myth!

scootie — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 17:28:34 GMT

am not hundered % on this but i belive ive seen anotherone post quoting you have a grace period of somthing like 70mins to resync and raise your sync back up the profile ladder with out it droping to the lowest profile you synced at.
dont hold me to that and put me before the firing squad if your profile drops to 2000kbps thoe plz

Re: Profile resetting is just an urban myth!

hadden — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 17:44:12 GMT

@ASBO DOG
Thanks, I have a similar level of recall about the 70 mins, so I can blame myself as much as anyone else for expecting to be able to do a few resyncs within that time.
This time, it took four attempts to get the sync from 2528 up to 3264, when I felt it was a case of diminishing returns and stopped for fear of upsetting the ADSL gods.
BT still have my profile at 3000 kbps. But I'm still kind of resigned to a 2500 kbps weekend now. I'll just go and whimper in a corner...

Re: Profile resetting is just an urban myth!

Mand — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 22:30:37 GMT

We can request a reset of the SNR, however can't guarantee that this will be granted. Please raise a ticket and post the number and I'll get the request sent.

Re: Profile resetting is just an urban myth!

hadden — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 22:45:09 GMT

@Mand
I understand.
Ticket number is 30976031
Thanks and good luck.

Re: Profile resetting is just an urban myth!

Anotherone — Sat, 28 Nov 2009 08:39:36 GMT

Well good luck with your profile, but if my memory serves me right, if you have more than 2 resyncs below a particular profile band within the 75 mins, the profile will go down.
Also, load balancing would not affect the modem/router's sync with the exchange, so if I were you, I'd keep an eye on things, something else may be going on. Haven't had any lightning in the last couple of days have you?

Re: Profile resetting is just an urban myth!

hadden — Sat, 28 Nov 2009 10:25:01 GMT

You're right, I can't rule out any root cause, while I don't know exactly what caused the initial problem. I can only try to look for clues and see if i can spot a pattern. However, I have had a couple of disconnects before 'coincidentally' when load balancing was going on.
I tell myself, as you say, that they should not be directly connected to the sync with the exchange, but wondered if the mechanism for connecting/disconnecting users can send some data to the modem/router (DG834G v4) that indirectly triggers some error condition that results in a reset?
If that is true, then I'm not blaming either the router or the load balancing, more just realising that "things happen" when systems are connected together.
My reason for suspecting the load balancing event is:
My router had been connected constantly for 6 weeks. On 16/11/09 I'd checked the gateway as I didn't want to be on pcl-ag03 if a disconnect was carried out during that evening, due to the earlier status messages, and noted that it was connected on gateway pcl-ag04. At about 18:50 the router reset. I was standing about 2 metres from the router when it was reset (so could confirm that no human or animal interference was involved) and the weather was fine. I was aware of the reset within a minute of it happening because I have RouterStats running with tight alarm parameters set. A PN status message came through a few hours later saying "Our engineers have re-routed a third of the traffic destined for pcl-ag03 to a different gateway (pcl-ag04).".

My profile appears to have been retained at 3000 kbps overnight even though I was connected at 3264 all that time, which is contrary to what I understand should happen, but I'm not complaining, this time.
I carried out a daytime reset a short time ago. The default target SNR is still 15dB and the initial sync was at 2688 kbps. Over the new couple of minutes I tried to force the target SNR down to get a higher sync. I was able to get the SNR down to 9.6 but sync would get no higher than 3776. So I settled for 3552 with SNR at 10.8 dB as it was sufficient for a 3000 kbps profile.
While the initial resync this morning was 2688 the other resyncs were all in the range 3552-3776 (ie 3000 profile), so that supports the 75 minute rule.
However last night the resyncs were 2528, 3168, 3168, 3264. All of those are below the 3000 kbps profile and were carried out within a couple of minutes, so were well within 75 minutes of each other.
As Mand says the logic is subject to interpretation, but surely someone must know what's going on?

Re: Profile resetting is just an urban myth!

Anotherone — Sat, 28 Nov 2009 10:33:25 GMT

Yes, the crazy idiots that wrote the software!

Re: Profile resetting is just an urban myth!

VileReynard — Sun, 29 Nov 2009 00:34:45 GMT

Quote from: Anotherone
Well good luck with your profile, but if my memory serves me right, if you have more than 2 resyncs below a particular profile band within the 75 mins, the profile will go down.

Are you sure?
I thought the situation was that if you have only 2 resyncs (or more) below a profile band within your 75 mins, your profile will go down.
If you have just 1 resync below a band and 1 resync back up to your current band, both within 75 mins, you may be lucky and your profile might escape unchanged.
However, if this happens very often, then you will be penalised.

Re: Profile resetting is just an urban myth!

hadden — Sun, 29 Nov 2009 10:31:32 GMT

I carried out another router reset this morning. The first resync was 2816 kbps with 15.3 dB SNR. I manually reduced the target SNR and got a second resync of 3648 with 10.6 dB SNR.
However before the reset I noted that the BT Speedtester states that my profile is 3000 k but the Plusnet profile had reduced to 2500 overnight.
Shouldn't the low Friday night results have reduced the profile to 2500 kbps on Friday, according to the 75 minute rule (4 results below the 3000 kbps range). However my download speeds all yesterday remained consistent with a 3000 kbps profile. As the profile at Plusnet reduced last night, could that have been the 75 minute rule applying, but with a delay?
I'm sure I also recall a previous situation where the profile that BT reports to us on their speedtester is not the same as BT report to Plusnet through their systems. So I may be trying to understand the situation with very few facts to go on... only rumours and myths.

Re: Profile resetting is just an urban myth!

Anotherone — Sun, 29 Nov 2009 14:01:40 GMT

Yes I've heard that, there also seems to have been some evidence of PN using out of date profiles!!

Re: Profile resetting is just an urban myth!

hadden — Mon, 30 Nov 2009 10:31:59 GMT

Last night (about 10pm) I noticed that my PN profile was stated as 3000 again. However MyBroadband Speed tests came back as 1663, 1987 and 1348, which i suppose I could put down to other traffic load.
This morning the PN displayed profile was still 3000 and the BT displayed profile 3000, however a speed test was only 2281 kbps, ie consistent with a 2500 profile.
I then reset the router. 1st sync was 2880 kbps with SNR 15.1 dB. I manually reduced the SNR and got 3776 kbps with SNR 10.6.
A speed test then reported 2746 kbps, ie consistent with a 3000 kbps profile.
As this is my third consecutive daily reset, I am inclined to leave things alone to see what happens. However when I left things alone last week, after almost exactly 72 hours, I was rewarded with my default target SNR rising from 12dB to 15dB.
For info, my line attenuation is 51dB and I am 2.54km from the exchange, in a straight line. When my target SNR is 6dB I usually sync around 4600-4700 kbps and can get a 4000 profile, but I keep the target SNR a little higher to give more assured overnight stability.
All things considered, my current ADSL performance is probably not too bad. Especially relative to those situations when a customer download speed drops to 750 kbps or lower.
However the case continues to grow against the reliability of technical information being reported.

Re: Profile resetting is just an urban myth!

orbrey — Mon, 30 Nov 2009 12:41:42 GMT

Hi JohnJ,
I can see you've raised a ticket to have the SNR reset, I must admit I have concerns over this given the fluctuating SNR and line rates you've advised of above. If we do get the SNR reset it's likely that it'll update again very shortly after going through the process, and we won't be able to reset it again for some time unfortunately. If you'd still like to go ahead with it no worries, just wanted to voice my concerns.

Re: Profile resetting is just an urban myth!

hadden — Mon, 30 Nov 2009 13:36:04 GMT

Hi Matt
Thanks for your concerns.
Taking them into account, I also would like the impending SNR reset request to have the best chance of success. So if you can advise the best scenario that results in a successful SNR reset, I would be happy to fit in with that. For example, should I avoid further router resets, etc?
If I could have a better idea about when the target SNR was going to be reduced and if I should take any particular action or avoid any particular action, it would be helpful.
The fluctuation of the resync speeds in the above posts are only due to me manually setting the target SNR between resyncs rather than a varying quality of the connection. These resync speeds are about what I would expect for my line at the corresponding SNR figures, based upon close observation over the last year.
I think that the current condition of my connection is only due to whatever systems are intended to detect bad connections, rather than any real world fault with my line.
If there is any influence possible over when it might take place, I would request that it didn't take place today. This is because I recall the first time my target SNR reduced to 6dB. I had carried out a manual router reset earlier in the day (for router configuration purposes). Then, later that day, my target SNR was automatically reduced to 6dB. This triggered another router reset... the "systems" seemed to count that as a second reset and therefore a fault condition and promptly shoved my SNR back up again and the profile way down!

Re: Profile resetting is just an urban myth!

orbrey — Mon, 30 Nov 2009 13:46:33 GMT

Well, it'll happen within 24 hours of us placing the order, generally early in the morning. I suspect unless you (or I) update the ticket it'll get placed this afternoon, happen overnight and be done by tomorrow morning.
If it involves a complete reset of the line including the 10 day training period it may well help to settle things so I agree in that it is worth trying, for sure. Just let us know if you'd like to hold off for a while.
I suspect that once the reset is done continuing to resync the line in the mornings - at least during the training period - will help, as long as it's not happening too often.
Hope that helps,

Re: Profile resetting is just an urban myth!

hadden — Mon, 30 Nov 2009 14:23:12 GMT

Thanks for your advice.
Based upon that and my previous experience, I've updated the ticket to request a 24 hour delay on the order, just to make sure an overnight event is more than 24 hours clear of my last router reset.
If I'm too late to delay things, then I'm sure it will all work out in the end.