topic Re: Info for customers with fibre faults. in Plusnet Feedback

Info for customers with fibre faults.

wayyoung — Tue, 22 Dec 2015 11:30:28 GMT

For all those new customers wondering what PN support and services are like, here's my experience over the past week or so. Make of it what you will.
04/12/2015 - FTTC install date.
14/12/2015 - Fault opened due to lower than estimated downstream and terribly slow upstream.
15/12/2015 - Chased up and told "72 hours for a fault update"
17/12/2015 - Told it may be a further 24/48 hours
18/12/2015 - "Escalated through TL and fault agent will contact you by 5pm today" - No contact received.
-WEEKEND-
21/12/2015 - "Will have someone from the fault team contact you this afternoon" - No contact received.
22/12/2015 - Transcript of a chat I've just had -
info: You are now chatting with *****.
**********: Good morning *****. I'm looking for an update on ticket #***** please?
*****: Good morning, I'm *****. How can I help?
*****: OK, Can I take the first and last characters of your password please?
**********: **
*****: Thanks
*****: There is no update on that ticket since your comment roughly 11 hours ago, the faults department will update that and contact you as soon as they are able to.
**********: thats 8 days since raising the fault with nothing back from PN.
**********: was promised to be contacted on Friday = there was no contact.
**********: was promised to be contacted yesterday = there was no contact.
*****: I doubt we would have specifically made any promises Tony, but our average fault resolution time is 7 days, 6 hours, 12 minutes and 4 seconds at present so you are marginally over the average (which you can see HERE.
The conversation was then ended before I could make my reply. Personally I'm feeling rather ignored and fed up with being fobbed off. I don't expect people to 'care', I do however, expect the issues to be addressed and rectified.
What's your experiences been like lately?
--
Tony

Re: Info for customers with fibre faults.

jafreer — Tue, 22 Dec 2015 11:33:35 GMT

Makes sad reading. And I don't see anywhere near the staff response that there used to be on the forums.
It is like I am witnessing the demise of a once great ISP, right before my eyes.

Re: Info for customers with fibre faults.

Bendo — Tue, 22 Dec 2015 12:03:19 GMT

Looks like the price rises and associated ability to leave contract early came at just the right time.

Re: Info for customers with fibre faults.

wayyoung — Tue, 22 Dec 2015 15:25:07 GMT

Very interesting email from PN in particular the part about the vdsl router as i'm using their PN Hub One! -
======BEGIN======
On checking your connection, it appears the estimate initially given was incorrect. Due to the use of a VDSL router rather than an Openreach modem, your speed is expected to be within the impacted speed range as seen above, between 6.5Mbps and 15.9Mbps, which is currently is.
I apologise you were given the incorrect estimate initially, unfortunately I cannot progress it further.
Should you wish to discuss this further, you will need to contact us on 0800 432 0200 as the faults team can no longer assist.
======END======

Re: Info for customers with fibre faults.

jafreer — Tue, 22 Dec 2015 16:43:45 GMT

Sorry, this sounds like BS by PlusNet. I am happy to be corrected however.

Re: Info for customers with fibre faults.

rongtw — Tue, 22 Dec 2015 17:41:01 GMT

What because you use a VDSL this causes your connection to be on the Impacted scale ?
Is the PN hub one that bad ?

Re: Info for customers with fibre faults.

jafreer — Tue, 22 Dec 2015 19:32:07 GMT

And of course, by stating that, PN are essentially saying that by giving you a combined modem/router, we have a get out of jail free card with regards to minimum acceptable speeds.
Any staff monitoring the forum, that response really needs some clarification as I think what is contained within that email really could land you in hot water.

Re: Info for customers with fibre faults.

nanotm — Tue, 22 Dec 2015 19:39:18 GMT

it would rather depend on what router your using and what equipment was supplied and what equipment is used in the exchange.
chip matching is still important on vdsl lines although you just receive an impacted service (slow like treacle with lots of errors) when there is a mismatch a decent matched pair will see massive improvements on a fault free line.

Re: Info for customers with fibre faults.

Brandscill — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 08:49:02 GMT

Quote from: misterTony

*****: I doubt we would have specifically made any promises Tony, but our average fault resolution time is 7 days, 6 hours, 12 minutes and 4 seconds at present so you are marginally over the average (which you can see HERE.

Nice of the chat representative to disregard your comment about callbacks and make you sound like a liar. Great CS.

Re: Info for customers with fibre faults.

wayyoung — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 09:54:13 GMT

TBH I'm not quite sure what the faults guy meant in his email. It didn't quite make sense to me. So, being of an inquisitive mind I again contact their support and talked to a very nice and helpful lady (who I shan't name).
So I finally get an acknowledgement that the estimate they gave me was very wrong. But by implication I'm supposed to just accept that or can try and get some money back. I queried them on the OR modem statement and was told that they had no OR modems in stock and it wouldn't make a difference to my sync speeds which seem to nullify the statement about using a "vDSL router and not an OR modem causing the low speeds".
I next asked them what they considered a impacted line to be and this was the response -
===BEGIN===
******BT Wholesale provide two estimates, clean and impacted. Clean is where a engineer completes the install on the customer's behalf by tuning the line at your property. This is not something we can offer. Since the line is professionally tuned for FTTC service, speed is generally slightly higher. Impacted is where the line may be of an unknown standard. We cannot guarantee that the line will be 100% for FTTC service so a lower speed can be expected.
******: To your second question if you got hold of a BT Openreach modem the speed would be the same as the line would not be altered.
===END===
Which even now, after consideration says to me that they cant provide clean lines to customers and therefore all installs may be impacted. Does this explain the numerous speed complaints?q
I then had to push for recognition that my FTTC upstream is less than 1/2 of my previous ADSL provision on the same line. It was accepted that this still looks like a fault and it's been bounced back again to faults, possibly for another 8+ day wait!
So overall I'm not too sure I'm getting anywhere with this but worth persevering I think.
--
Tony

Re: Info for customers with fibre faults.

Townman — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 10:56:36 GMT

These explanations from PlusNET of what 'impacted' means are very disappointing. From BTw's FTTC availability page...

Quote
For FTTC Ranges A and B, the term "Clean" relates to a line which is free from any wiring issues (e.g. Bridge Taps) and/or Copper line conditions, and the term "Impacted" relates to a line which may have wiring issues (e.g. Bridge Taps) and/or Copper line conditions.

In other words, it has nothing to do with the termination equipment or who installs it. BTOR installers do not 'tune' lines. Either you've got a good (clean) line or BTOR are supplying a poor (impacted) line and are unwilling to fix it. That being the case, changing ISPs will resolve nothing.
@CRT,
Does this experience point to the need to review training on this subject? Can PlusNET identify if a line has bridges or taps at the point of order take? Can BTOR (if pushed hard enough) remove bridges and taps? Given that this is all to do with the 'copper' if the user's d-side is aluminium, then they really are stuffed!

Re: Info for customers with fibre faults.

wayyoung — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 11:17:43 GMT

Quote from: Townman
These explanations from PlusNET of what 'impacted' means are very disappointing. From BTw's FTTC availability page...
Quote
For FTTC Ranges A and B, the term "Clean" relates to a line which is free from any wiring issues (e.g. Bridge Taps) and/or Copper line conditions, and the term "Impacted" relates to a line which may have wiring issues (e.g. Bridge Taps) and/or Copper line conditions.

In other words, it has nothing to do with the termination equipment or who installs it. BTOR installers do not 'tune' lines. Either you've got a good (clean) line or BTOR are supplying a poor (impacted) line and are unwilling to fix it. That being the case, changing ISPs will resolve nothing.

I had read BTs explanation on an 'impacted' line and merely wanted to hear what PN had to say about it. Thier response didn't really help me in any way TBH.
I realise changing ISPs wont solve a thing, but perhaps more helpful and knowledgeable staff would make the change feasible. Its been a painful experience over the past couple of weeks trying to get an acknowledgement of an issue. It seem that if their tests do not see a fault, there is no fault. Although most would understand that this merely shows that no fault was detected at that precise moment it was done.

Re: Info for customers with fibre faults.

HarryB — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 11:27:54 GMT

Quote from: Townman
In other words, it has nothing to do with the termination equipment or who installs it. BTOR installers do not 'tune' lines. Either you've got a good (clean) line or BTOR are supplying a poor (impacted) line and are unwilling to fix it.

Back when we were advised we were moving to self install and the clean/impacted ranges were discussed briefly, it was also mentioned (Further to what you've already said above) that a line can be classed as impacted due to customers internal wiring etc.
In the past I've seen lots of people complain that engineers have removed/disconnected phone extension wiring when installing fibre. Although I understand what you're saying about engineer not 'tuning' lines, when carrying out installations they used to disconnect other stuff that could potentially impact the line.
I also agree that it's pretty poor for any of our staff to try and explain that using a hub one automatically means you definitely have an impacted line. I'll be passing feedback on regarding that point.

Re: Info for customers with fibre faults.

wayyoung — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 11:59:36 GMT

Quote from: HarryB

Back when we were advised we were moving to self install and the clean/impacted ranges were discussed briefly, it was also mentioned (Further to what you've already said above) that a line can be classed as impacted due to customers internal wiring etc.

I realised this from an early point and so, not having the need for any internal telephony wiring, had it all removed. Unfortunately my issues remain and seem to be external to the building. It's a real pity that BT never had the foresight that one day their network would be heavily reliable on good quality materials and substituted copper for aluminium (assuming that's what's happened in my case although its near impossible to find out the real cause and it may be a number of factors). I also think it a pity that there seems to be a lack of willingness to deal with the issue of impacted lines, certainly from my point of view. No matter what technology BTW may employ in the future it seems that those unlucky enough to have an impacted line, that they will never be able to cope or deliver any greater speeds than it does atm. <--- I would dearly like to be wrong on this point!

Quote from: HarryB

I also agree that it's pretty poor for any of our staff to try and explain that using a hub one automatically means you definitely have an impacted line. I'll be passing feedback on regarding that point.

Well if something comes from this thread, some staff educating would be welcome 🙂

Re: Info for customers with fibre faults.

nanotm — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 12:19:10 GMT

you could always advise some local metal stealers that your line is made of copper and allow them to initiate problem solving ..... locally there have been many problems with such people and BT's answer was to replace the lines with underground fibre, true it takes than a week or two to actually fix the problem but the end result is so much better that it might just be worth it to go without after all a new bit of kit being installed is likely to fix the underlying issue......

Re: Info for customers with fibre faults.

itsme — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 15:35:24 GMT

BT have never replaced stolen copper cables with Fibre, where do you get these ideas from?

Re: Info for customers with fibre faults.

wayyoung — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 15:41:17 GMT

Quote from: nanotm
you could always advise some local metal stealers that your line is made of copper and allow them to initiate problem solving

Nice idea but would probably incur me a £130- fee for having a new line installed knowing my luck 😕
I make another call to PN Support this afternoon. Specifically the Customer Options department after seeking advice from customer support. I speak to a representative and explain that my fibre account is significantly slower that the estimate range. He goes to speak to the faults team. Coming back he states that my line speed is within the estimate and proceeds to give me a lower estimate I'd never had beforehand! And there's nothing he can/will do about it. End of call.
So what have I learned today -
1) According to PN, there is no fault with my service.
2) The line speed may be poor but it's within your line estimate which they seem to have changed.
3) Subsequently they will not consider a price reduction.
4) Out of all the representatives I have talked to over the past 2-3 weeks, not one seems to grasp the meaning of an upgrade. I shall provide that to them in writing when I pen my letter of complaint.
5) Customer Options is a team dedicated to helping retain new and existing customers!
Well, with regards to number 5 I think they may have failed on that part.

Re: Info for customers with fibre faults.

nanotm — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 16:28:02 GMT

unless you have a physical copy of the original line speed estimate there's likely fig all you will get out of that, if you do have an original hardcopy communication of the line speed estimate communicated to you on headed paper then take the complaint up with the ombudsman.
I had a nasty experience with a provider many moons ago in that regard and far from improving the half service they had oversold to me I was left without a service for several months, my complaint was upheld and the service provider was left with a rather large bill, but the days of the regulator acting in good faith are long gone now its all about "reasonably practicable" unless you have the proof in black and white!

@itsme
BT made a statement to that effect several years ago when they were suffering multiple thefts of the same stretch of cable at a local meeting

Re: Info for customers with fibre faults.

wayyoung — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 16:42:05 GMT

Quote from: nanotm
unless you have a physical copy of the original line speed estimate there's likely fig all you will get out of that, if you do have an original hardcopy communication of the line speed estimate communicated to you on headed paper then take the complaint up with the ombudsman.

Now that's where some of their tactics come into play. For me, I got my estimate on their website as I was 'upgrading'. No copy of this was ever sent to me that I can recall (I shall double check this). But http://portal.plus.net/my.html?action=data_transfer_speed still shows my initial estimate which may be of use to me.
One of my issues with this whole saga, is the non-mention of 'impacted' lines pre upgrade. They provision FTTC, it's naff, and then they mention 'impacted' lines and drop the estimate and expect you to stay quiet and accept it all the while paying for something less.
Imagine Sky, or similar, selling packages with 200 channels. You go ahead and get it all installed to find out you only get 150 channels and that's that! No apology. No recompense. No fix. Just accept it and move along.
I shall be updating this forum with my efforts and responses as they come for all to see when I raise my complaint.
Pity it's probably only PN customers than use this forum post-install/setup.

Re: Info for customers with fibre faults.

ejs — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 17:22:24 GMT

Quote from: Townman
These explanations from PlusNET of what 'impacted' means are very disappointing. From BTw's FTTC availability page...
Quote
For FTTC Ranges A and B, the term "Clean" relates to a line which is free from any wiring issues (e.g. Bridge Taps) and/or Copper line conditions, and the term "Impacted" relates to a line which may have wiring issues (e.g. Bridge Taps) and/or Copper line conditions.

In other words, it has nothing to do with the termination equipment or who installs it. BTOR installers do not 'tune' lines. Either you've got a good (clean) line or BTOR are supplying a poor (impacted) line and are unwilling to fix it. That being the case, changing ISPs will resolve nothing.
@CRT,
Does this experience point to the need to review training on this subject? Can PlusNET identify if a line has bridges or taps at the point of order take? Can BTOR (if pushed hard enough) remove bridges and taps? Given that this is all to do with the 'copper' if the user's d-side is aluminium, then they really are stuffed!

It's the unfiltered extension socket wiring that acts as a bridged tap. Openreach installing the centralised SSFP would have dealt with that, but of course with self install, that doesn't get sorted out any more. Doing FTTC with plug-in microfilters in multiple sockets would probably count as impacted. I the the FTTC fault testing is supposed to be able to detect bridged tap issues.