topic Re: BTOR being taken to task in Plusnet Feedback

BTOR being taken to task

pwatson — Mon, 29 Jun 2015 21:03:02 GMT

Given the lamentable performance of BTOR it seems that Sky have finally had enough and actually complained!
https://corporate.sky.com/media-centre/news-page/2015/sky-reveals-evidence-of-openreach-service-failure-and-calls-for-market-investigation?e=email-alerts
When can we look forward to PN throwing their hat into the ring and joining Sky in taking their sister company to task publically?
[This is of course a rhetorical question as PN has demonstrated time after time their unwillingness to actually challenge Openreach]

Re: BTOR being taken to task

chrcoluk — Mon, 29 Jun 2015 21:44:27 GMT

I guess the industry is not happy with the 2% then. oh dear.

Quote
Openreach changes the agreed installation date for Sky customers on average around 36,000 times a
month

Re: BTOR being taken to task

ITWorks — Mon, 29 Jun 2015 21:49:58 GMT

Quote from: pwatson
When can we look forward to PN throwing their hat into the ring and joining Sky in taking their sister company to task publically?

Simple answer, never.
Regards
Mike

Re: BTOR being taken to task

chrcoluk — Mon, 29 Jun 2015 21:55:00 GMT

or maybe if ever openreach is no longer part of BT group.

Re: BTOR being taken to task

jafreer — Mon, 29 Jun 2015 22:37:01 GMT

It is definitely making that 2% figure seem highly suspect.

Re: BTOR being taken to task

ejs — Tue, 30 Jun 2015 05:26:22 GMT

Thanks for posting this, interesting reading material. I'm not sure Openreach should really be blamed for the total number of faults though - that could depend on things like stormy weather which Openreach can't control.

Re: BTOR being taken to task

Townman — Tue, 30 Jun 2015 08:16:19 GMT

Excellent news, let's hope Andy Baker follows in their foot steps. The issues cited are clearly visible in these forums.
As for the suggestion that Openreach should not be blamed for the faults in their network, who else is to be held responsible? It is their network and excluding exceptional extreme weather issues, proper investment in the last mile network ought to have eliminated the source of the majority of faults. The issue is that whilst there has been investment in the fibre access network, there has been zero investment in the d-side infrastructure. Much of it is 40+ years old.

Re: BTOR being taken to task

ejs — Tue, 30 Jun 2015 20:17:34 GMT

Is it really that Sky have finally had enough of Openreach's lamentable performance? Or perhaps Sky is just attacking BT in any way possible because they're worried about people no longer paying for Sky TV if people start paying for BT Sport instead.
Ironically, the people who often complain I'm twisting their words seem to manage to misinterpret what I was trying to convey. If the total number of faults in a particular year was higher than the previous year, it's not necessarily because Openreach were doing worse, it could have been due to various external factors like the weather or cable theft, which Openreach can't directly control, although I suppose if all the metal telephone wires had been replaced with underground fibre-optic cables to every property, then they would be less susceptible to damage from high winds and also less attractive to cable thieves.
I suppose if Plusnet are going to have adverts with all those customers marching into their offices and demanding better service, then I suppose one might expect Plusnet to be doing the same to their suppliers. Otherwise, the only reason Plusnet might have a higher proportion of satisfied customers than other ISPs will be because all the dissatisfied customers will have left.
There are also a load of stats available from Openreach.

Re: BTOR being taken to task

Townman — Tue, 30 Jun 2015 20:28:06 GMT

Quote from: ejs
Otherwise, the only reason Plusnet might have a higher proportion of satisfied customers than other ISPs will be because all the dissatisfied customers will have left.

Well they do seem to be motivating people to consider moving away in a manner not seen before ...

Re: BTOR being taken to task

AndyH — Tue, 30 Jun 2015 20:38:28 GMT

The problem I've got with all this is the way Sky have done it (as a press release) - it seems like a glorified PR attack rather than anything of any substance.
There are areas that Openreach has failed on and let customers down on, with ethernet being the prime one. The CEO has openly apologised to customers and they have been weekly briefings about making improvements to the service that is provided.
On WLR/LLU/FTTx, Openreach is meeting all 60 targets set by OFCOM. Have Sky complained to OFCOM that the targets are not stringent enough? Nope. If they were unhappy with the service for so many years, why did they not raise an official complaint with OFCOM?
I also find it strange how Sky have accused Openreach have underinvested in the UK infrastructure - well how do 75% of the country have fibre? No regulator is going to split up a company with a monopoly that is in the middle of a huge capital investment in future broadband access. Would there really be the same level of investment and broadband expansion from a company that it split off from BT? I very much doubt it.

Re: BTOR being taken to task

chrcoluk — Tue, 30 Jun 2015 21:01:47 GMT

andy basically you unhappy because you think it all should be private and it makes a mockery of your industry is happy with 2% statement,
Also you seem to think its enough that openreach only has to reach ofcom targets, what happened to the company having pride, they should be aiming for 0% missed appointments, 0% faults etc.
Also how do you know sky have not complained to ofcom? maybe they have and ofcom said tough luck and so decided to go public.

Re: BTOR being taken to task

pwatson — Tue, 30 Jun 2015 21:09:37 GMT

Regardless of Sky's motives and method, ejs and AndyH seems to have missed:
- More than 90% of new line installations, which require an Openreach engineer to attend, take 10 calendar days or longer. Almost one in ten installations takes longer than 30 days.
- Openreach changes the agreed installation date for Sky customers on average around 36,000 times a month.
- Openreach misses over 500 appointments each month to install new lines for Sky customers and fails to complete a further 4,000 jobs per month.
It seems that almost every day there's a post on this forum where PN customers are complaining of no-shows for installations/repairs and issues caused by BTOR changing booked dates.
Admittedly the impact of this latter problem is compounded by PN's lack of process for picking up the change and communicating it to their customer (and/or PN's inability to actually place the order in an increasing number of cases) so PN are far from blameless but Sky are highlighting issues that affect the whole industry.

Re: BTOR being taken to task

jafreer — Tue, 30 Jun 2015 21:18:28 GMT

I agree pwatson - I find it hard to swallow any argument that says Openreach is performing anywhere near adequately.

Re: BTOR being taken to task

rongtw — Tue, 30 Jun 2015 21:19:59 GMT

this is what i found earlier , it dont make good reading
http://hexus.net/business/news/telcos/84338-sky-calls-ofcom-investigation-uks-broadband-marketplace/

Re: BTOR being taken to task

AndyH — Tue, 30 Jun 2015 21:35:31 GMT

Quote from: pwatson
- More than 90% of new line installations, which require an Openreach engineer to attend, take 10 calendar days or longer. Almost one in ten installations takes longer than 30 days.

I cannot give you the Sky breakdown, but I can provide this:

Scotland is an issue for new line installations (there is a reason for this...):

Edit: If you read through the Sky report, I think certain things can be pulled to pieces as nothing more than a competitive motive.

Re: BTOR being taken to task

pwatson — Tue, 30 Jun 2015 21:44:31 GMT

From the site linked to by ejs...
http://www.homeandwork.openreach.co.uk/Our-responsibilities/KPI_byProduct.aspx?kpi=4
BT's own figures seem to back up Sky's claim?

Re: BTOR being taken to task

AndyH — Tue, 30 Jun 2015 22:04:59 GMT

There's a big difference - OFCOM set the 10 day migration period for phone line transfers which is included in those numbers.
For lines where there is no existing service (no transfer) and an engineer is appointed, the lead times for the vast majority of the country are far shorter.
If the report didn't put a spin on numbers, then I think it would be taken much more seriously by OFCOM:
More than 90% of new line installations, which require an Openreach engineer to attend, take 10 calendar days or longer. Almost one in ten installations takes longer than 30 days.
If you read through the Sky report, it's saying there were 400,000 new line installations in the last twelve months from customers 'switching to Sky'. So most of these would have been transfers and subject to the transfer period.
The other thing Sky don't include is what % of the people waiting more than 10 days were subject to delays due to Sky issues like capacity issues at the MPF.

Re: BTOR being taken to task

chrcoluk — Tue, 30 Jun 2015 23:20:19 GMT

andy openreach will have their own performance measurements, and sky will have their's. Just because they dont match it doesnt mean one is right and the other is wrong.
However what the sky statement does mean is that the industry is not happy like you claimed it to be.
If openreach disagree, they open to publicise their own figures and state the evidence they use to disprove sky statement.

Re: BTOR being taken to task

pwatson — Tue, 30 Jun 2015 23:26:09 GMT

Quote from: AndyH
There's a big difference - OFCOM set the 10 day migration period for phone line transfers which is included in those numbers.
For lines where there is no existing service (no transfer) and an engineer is appointed, the lead times for the vast majority of the country are far shorter.
If the report didn't put a spin on numbers, then I think it would be taken much more seriously by OFCOM:
More than 90% of new line installations, which require an Openreach engineer to attend, take 10 calendar days or longer. Almost one in ten installations takes longer than 30 days.

Re-read the statement - Sky have specifically called out new line installs rather than migrations. No 10 day lead time involved.

Re: BTOR being taken to task

ejs — Wed, 01 Jul 2015 05:11:08 GMT

Picking a number and saying over 90% get worse than it must be a good way to make something look bad. It's similar to that recent Which report on broadband speed making everything look bad because according to that almost everyone was getting less than the headline maximum speed advertised.
Installing a satellite dish on someone's house isn't really the same as connecting a cable from someone's house back to the exchange.

Quote from: pwatson
- Openreach misses over 5002 appointments each month to install new lines for Sky customers and fails to complete a further 4,000 jobs per month.

5002 a typo for 500?