topic Re: FAO managers - appalling uptime, logged 7 times with no fix. in Plusnet Feedback

FAO managers - appalling uptime, logged 7 times with no fix.

ruana62 — Sat, 23 May 2015 20:09:47 GMT

I am posting this on behalf of my mother, to whom I recommended plusnet. Since your regular 30 minute call wait times and general decline is customer service, I made the decision to leave plusnet when my contract ended - this account is heading in the same direction.
This is I believe the 7th time I am personally logging this call with plusnet - I tried checking the closed calls, but there are so many calls/notes (50+) which is too many to check through. I would also like to mention that it took me 19 minutes and 12 seconds to get through to support today, typical. 'Award winning service' - yeah sure.
I come to my mothers house on Saturdays, and during the 4 hours, once a week that I am here, I witness the connection being 'dropped' 2-10 times. The issues occurs sporadically all day, every day, but this is the only time I am personally here to experience, and troubleshoot it. As above, I have logged the call numerous times - I believe today is the 7th time since September, almost once a month.
Despite this, it seems plusnet are incapable of identifying and resolving the issue. I have given them much more information than the average customer, due to my profession (IT infrastructure engineer).
The DSL connection doesn't always drop, but the connection becomes completely unusable, 50-75% packet loss, with successful pings in excess of 1 second(I use the -w switch when pinging setting it to 2000ms) to the general internet (bbc, google dns) and also plusnets gateway (195.166.128.185). This isn't the 'normal' state of the connection - websites will suddenly stop loading, and after 15 minutes on a good day, or sometimes upto an hour on a bad day, the connection suddenly springs back to life. Sometimes the DSL connection does drop, but since raising the SNR to 10dB, its uncommon for DSL to drop. This identifies the issue with the line to this property (as suspected) and not within plusnets network.
To troubleshoot, I have firstly remove the faceplate and gone directly into the test socket. There is only one termination in this property. I have also replaced the plusnet router with a BT homehub 4 that was used in the property before(also offers much improved WiFi), and also tested it for a week with my N55U - same issue all around. Of course, tests are always conducted with wired connections - I know the ins and outs of WiFi, but at least in this house, there are no other networks in range. I have also conducted a quietline test when the issue is occurring, with absolutely no audible noise on the line (I didn't expect this).
I understand that it is openreach that manage the line, but after 7 reports I feel that plusnet are passing the call, openreach pass back with 'cant find anything' and plusnet just give up and close the call - there is no persevering.
I logged the call once again today, but if plusnet come back with 'fixed' and it drops again, I will be cancelling the connection (and no, I will not be paying for leaving early) and I also expect a full refund for the entire duration of the connection, both for the broadband, and the line rental. We have raised this every single month, and there is simply no excuse for us to be experiencing the issue 8 months after first logging the problem.
Ian

Re: FAO managers - appalling uptime, logged 7 times with no fix.

Townman — Sun, 24 May 2015 14:49:46 GMT

Ian,
Welcome to the forums, sorry to hear of your mum's problems. As an experienced engineer, I am sure you will be aware of the challenge of locating and fixing intermittent problems. If they are not there to be found on the day the engineer looks then they often remain elusive. Your description suggests that there might be exchange congestion. If the router supports wan pings, consider setting up a TBB BQM.
In the meantime, please gather and ~~pistol~~ post all of the information requested under the speed issues link below.
Have you done the quiet line test? Dual 17070 option 2.
Kevin

Re: FAO managers - appalling uptime, logged 7 times with no fix.

AndyH — Sun, 24 May 2015 15:15:43 GMT

As Kevin's suggested, a BQM would be useful but only if you're able to maintained connectivity to Plusnet (unless your mother is on a static IP).
I think that level of packet loss would be more consistent with a line issue though.
Have Plusnet's line checks come back without any issues each time?

Re: FAO managers - appalling uptime, logged 7 times with no fix.

ruana62 — Sun, 24 May 2015 18:17:28 GMT

Hi Kevin - Thanks for your reply - as in the original post, I ran a quiet line test when the issue was being experienced, but there was nothing out of place. If it was an exchange congestion issue, I would expect a gradual slowdown rather than a very defined cutoff.
Andy - Yes, plusnets line tests come back fine each time.
Kevin/Andy - I didn't bother with a TBB ping monitor as its a dynamic IP, and of course each drop means it moves to a different external - TBB have said they're looking into a dyndns type monitor for years, but never implemented it.
I understand its difficult to identify intermittent issue, but:
1.) This isn't a once a week issue, but a several times a day issue
2.) It has been reported too many times already - I understand having to log it 2 times as it may have been missed the first time, but 7!?!?!?
3.) Last time we logged it, the 'problematic' issue was happening as we were on the phone to plusnet (for once they answered the phone in under 20 minutes - WOW) and the engineer was tracking the issue, and I was feeding back live speedtests/pings/tracerts - what the excuse here? The call was closed a few days later, only for the issue to remain in place.
With regards to router stats, I'm unable to get them at the moment but all looks fine (apart from the insanely high CRCs we used to get until the SNR was increased).
Speed tests (both from speedtest.net and btwholesale) come back 100% fine when the connection is 'normal'. As soon as the issues start to occur, its impossible to get to either site. In my determination to get a result whilst experiencing the issues, I installed andyroid on a wired connection PC to try and run an android VM and installed the speedtest app, thinking speedtest.net takes to long to load due to graphics/etc, and I didn't want to use my phone over Wifi, but this still failed.
Quite frankly, there is no excuse!

Re: FAO managers - appalling uptime, logged 7 times with no fix.

Townman — Sun, 24 May 2015 18:57:14 GMT

Ian,
Having re-read your original post and the additional information supplied, I'm drawn to suspect REIN - electrical interference. This can be very difficult to locate and even thereafter eliminate.
If you are using the TG582n, a NetGear or BTHH then RouterStats (see link below) is very useful in proving this. See the other link as a guide to configuring it for the TG582n router.
There are a multitude of devices which can cause REIN, it could be something new or just something which has gone marginally faulty. Have a read of the thread containing the configuration settings - it was one of the worse I've dealt with.
Kevin

Re: FAO managers - appalling uptime, logged 7 times with no fix.

MatthewWheeler — Mon, 25 May 2015 11:54:55 GMT

Sorry to hear about the issues your mother is having.
Our faults team should be getting around to that in the next 24 hours.

Re: FAO managers - appalling uptime, logged 7 times with no fix.

ruana62 — Thu, 28 May 2015 17:28:03 GMT

Hi Matthew.
Yes - I have had a response, and they advised her that it must be a router problem, and sent her a link on how to fix WiFi issues.
Disgusting. Please get a manager to call me ASAP as this is unnaceptable!!!
Ian

Re: FAO managers - appalling uptime, logged 7 times with no fix.

plusnettony — Fri, 29 May 2015 09:38:06 GMT

I feel that you were given that response, quite reasonable in my opinion, based on the information provided on your account in the current and last couple of tickets.
However, the easy way to find out about REIN is to look at this site. This really can narrow down a problem for you. REIN problems (if confirmed) are particularly tricky to resolve, and may ultimately be impossible if the person owning the device causing the problem isn't willing to replace it. It's therefore a good idea to get a little understanding of the problem and to have an idea about the location of the fault in advance.

Re: FAO managers - appalling uptime, logged 7 times with no fix.

Gel — Fri, 29 May 2015 10:19:13 GMT

Have you checked wifi channel change (via router) to see if this eases.?
Install a programme such as SSID to ascertain what channels are already in use
by neighbouring routers.
Then allocate one that's as far away from these as poss.

Re: FAO managers - appalling uptime, logged 7 times with no fix.

pwatson — Fri, 29 May 2015 10:25:48 GMT

The OP said in the first post (though perhaps not in the ticket exchange) that he's testing via a wired connection and has tried alternative routers...

Re: FAO managers - appalling uptime, logged 7 times with no fix.

Townman — Fri, 29 May 2015 10:31:11 GMT

...which is what lead me to suspect REIN.

Re: FAO managers - appalling uptime, logged 7 times with no fix.

alext05 — Fri, 29 May 2015 10:44:33 GMT

The official Plusnet response to a ticket wasn't about REIN by the look of it ("they advised her that it must be a router problem, and sent her a link on how to fix WiFi issues.") or was it?

Re: FAO managers - appalling uptime, logged 7 times with no fix.

Townman — Fri, 29 May 2015 11:05:49 GMT

Alex,
The original post references the SNRM being 10dB at which the tendancey to drop synch goes away. 10dB is not a "standard" target value and suggests the absence of some earlier noise now raising it above 9dB or the now presence of some noise (not present at the last resynch) dropping it from 12dB. If the SNRM was similarly high on the occasion of the CSC contact suggesting a wifi issue, I am somewhat perplexed to understand why that was missed / the problem thought to be wifi related.
Whatever an apparent target of 9dB or 12dB points to a line struggling to operate correctly, either due to a line fault or the presence of interference. Line tests imply that there is no discernible fault, somewhat verified by repeated engineer visits. The user has tried more than one router. If the test had been over wifi, then that would have been a logical candidate for the reported problems.
To be honest, we (other forum contributors) are short of hard facts. Given that Ian visits his mum once a week, the essential task of getting the router stats data is not going to be an easy task, certainly not for the kind of long term monitoring required for REIN investigations.
To afford any real help here, we need to see what the router "sees" on the line - that can only come from the user's end.
@Ian,
Did your mum have Internet at this place before joining PlusNET? If yes, has the PlusNET service ever worked without issue? If yes, are you able to relate degraded performance with the acquisition of or use of specific electrical equipment?
Ideally, you need to get RouterStats monitoring in place please to either verify that you do have REIN or eliminate it from the equation. Links to download RS and configure it can be found below. Note RS does not work with the (locked down) 2704n routers.
Kevin

Re: FAO managers - appalling uptime, logged 7 times with no fix.

alext05 — Fri, 29 May 2015 11:18:33 GMT

Thanks, Kevin, for your explanation. Hope this gets fixed soon.

Re: FAO managers - appalling uptime, logged 7 times with no fix.

ruana62 — Fri, 29 May 2015 20:39:07 GMT

Plusnettony - I have advised several times, on several calls and also in my OP, that we have tested with several routers. I have also outline each time, that I am well aware of issues with WiFi and that any tests conducted over WiFi, in my eyes, are absolutely useless and I do not count them towards any stats. As mention above, I work in the industry, and to make it clear to everyone, I am CCNA certified, so I certainly know more about WiFi and routers that your average joe.
I do not understand, after having this information, that you can come to the conclusion that the issue must be the router, after I have clearly pointed out that we have tested with a total of 3 different routers, all of which experience the same issue. More so, I do not understand how you find this 'quite reasonable'.
I can assure you that the issue does not lie within the internal network.
pwatson - thank you for pointing out what I have outlined to tony, above.
Townman - thank you very much for your input - it is very useful. We had BT in place prior to plusnet, and no issues were experienced. Something I did advise plusnet on several occasions, but failed to specify in my initial forum post, is that the issue started occurring after one particular incident. This was when some local contractors accidentally cut the overhead telephone wires, which was shortly after provisioning plusnet. Openreach resolved the issue after 48 hours. The cut took place around 300 meters down the road and ever since the cut and subsequently, the repairs took place, the issue started occurring.
I can see from some research that there is a version of RS available for HomeHub3. I'll get this installed in place of the HH4, and start logging. Unfortunately my mother doesn't have an always on machine (I have a server rack at my house so I might take a GEN8 over to her place ) but I'll try and make sure that something is left turned on. I assume that if we experience a disconnection/incident, and RS doesn't show anything, there isn't much point in logging any further?
I do hope plusnet don't close the call again - I've updated the ticket to argue their response, but unfortunately I don't have much hope.
Thank you all for your assistance - I'll try and get some graphs uploaded soon if anything interesting takes place.

Re: FAO managers - appalling uptime, logged 7 times with no fix.

AndyH — Fri, 29 May 2015 20:58:58 GMT

Could you post a traceroute to bbc.co.uk when the problem is occurring?
I am not so sure if it's a REIN issue if the DSL connection itself is now stable.

Re: FAO managers - appalling uptime, logged 7 times with no fix.

Townman — Sat, 30 May 2015 08:44:13 GMT

Andy,
I'm not sure it's REIN either, but the reported SNRM is not where we would hope it would be on a good line in a good environment. We need a "stream" of stats and given Ian is not in the location where the problem is, treating this as potentially REIN covers all angles.
Ian,
You can use RS to do continious pings to wherever - that will provide a history to look back at. It is a configurable option to 'disclose' the ping tab. I thought John )RS author) had enhanced RS full to support HH4.
Given your skills, you might want to consider opening up a couple of WAN ports (known only to you) on your mum's router and map them to the telnet and http ports on the router's LAN side. That ought to allow you remote access to the device's stats etc. You can find the current WAN IP address by pinging username.plus.com
@CRT,
Can you post a radius plot, share the line test report and advise what the target SNRM is please?
Kevin

Re: FAO managers - appalling uptime, logged 7 times with no fix.

MatthewWheeler — Sat, 30 May 2015 12:34:05 GMT

Visual Radius graph below

The target SNR is 9db and I've attached the Copper Line test

Re: FAO managers - appalling uptime, logged 7 times with no fix.

ruana62 — Sat, 30 May 2015 17:00:46 GMT

Thank you all for your replies.
Kevin - I have seen your instructions for setting up RS, but the hub version is slightly different and it seems that it is less configurable - either way, I hope we can capture the information we require.
Please see attached image that shows some sort of drop only a few minutes after I first setup RS. I assume this inst good?
Thanks

Re: FAO managers - appalling uptime, logged 7 times with no fix.

ruana62 — Sat, 30 May 2015 19:29:39 GMT

!!!UPDATE!!!
I managed to catch this issue as it was happening again today, and have some more results. Please note that in this particular incident, it wasn't fully offline to the point where webpages just sit loading until they timeout, which is what normally occurs, but just noticeably slower where I decided to run to the PC and check the RS graphs.
Please see attached images for the SNR and sync speed drops. This was a very quick one of 1 minute or so - most times they last for ~15 mins and as above, this wasn't as 'serious'.
Here is a tracert to BBC that I JUST managed to catch:
Tracing route to bbc.co.uk [212.58.246.103]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
1 1 ms <1 ms <1 ms BThomehub.home [192.168.1.254]
2 22 ms 22 ms 22 ms lo0.12.central12.pcl-bng01.plus.net [195.166.130
.140]
3 22 ms 22 ms 22 ms irb.12.pcl-cr01.plus.net [84.93.249.113]
4 22 ms 27 ms 25 ms ae1.ptw-cr01.plus.net [195.166.129.0]
5 22 ms 22 ms 28 ms kingston-gw.thdo.bbc.co.uk [212.58.239.6]
6 * fmt-vip132.cwwtf.bbc.co.uk [212.58.246.103] reports: Destination
protocol unreachable.
Trace complete.

And this is the tracert after the connection returned to normal:
Tracing route to bbc.co.uk [212.58.246.103]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms BThomehub.home [192.168.1.254]
2 22 ms 21 ms 22 ms lo0.12.central12.pcl-bng01.plus.net [195.166.130
.140]
3 60 ms 21 ms 22 ms irb.12.pcl-cr01.plus.net [84.93.249.113]
4 25 ms 26 ms 25 ms ae1.ptw-cr01.plus.net [195.166.129.0]
5 21 ms 25 ms 22 ms kingston-gw.thdo.bbc.co.uk [212.58.239.6]
6 * * * Request timed out.
7 23 ms 23 ms 23 ms ae0.er01.cwwtf.bbc.co.uk [132.185.254.93]
8 23 ms 24 ms 24 ms 132.185.255.165
9 23 ms 23 ms 23 ms fmt-vip132.cwwtf.bbc.co.uk [212.58.246.103]
Trace complete.