topic Re: Constructive posting in Plusnet Feedback

Constructive posting

jelv — Wed, 08 May 2013 18:36:55 GMT

This post is a result of some recent topics which have been less than satisfactory. Hopefully by reading this new (and existing) users posting will get the best from these forums.
Plusnet do sometimes get things wrong and users are left which extremely poor service (or no service at all). Often this will be at the point of joining Plusnet where the migration of the service(s) goes astray. The temptation is to post on here with a rant.
The problem is the rants are always along the line "Plusnet's fibre service is rubbish - don't touch it with a barge pole". That is patently rubbish as there are hundreds of thousands of very happy customers and it is inevitable that several people will post to refute the assertion (usually a pretty brief "Squawk: Mine's great") - this does nothing to resolve the situation and will usually anger the original poster further.
If the poster instead posted along the lines of "I've been having trouble with my connection dropping every three or four hours, I've been talking to Plusnet about it for two weeks and it is still not resolved" it would be far more constructive, give a far better picture of the sort of service they've received and also be far less likely to provoke the "Squawk: Mine's great!" responses. As well as the Plusnet staff on these forums there are a number of very experienced users who will often be able to help users resolve the situation.
What really matters is how an organisation responds when things have gone wrong. Many of the users posting on here would say that in that respect Plusnet is better than most and that the staff who man these forums will do everything possible to resolve problems. When the problem is resolved they will usually offer some form of compensation.
It's also worth pointing out that frequently Plusnet's ability to control events is limited and they are just as frustrated as the user that things have not gone to plan. Like all ISPs, including those with their own equipment in the exchanges, they are reliant on OpenReach engineers, and like all ISPs using BT Wholesale services* they have to communicate with them to report and progress faults. Frequently the issues are the responsibility of those organisations (e.g. engineers not turning up for booked appointments). Another frequent point of failure is the actions of the ISP the user is leaving. The procedures defined by OFCOM are designed so that the existing service is not terminated before the new service begins; however we've seen many cases where the old ISP terminates the service prematurely - there's nothing Plusnet can do to stop that happening.

* ISPs using BT Wholesale services are those who deliver broadband over the normal telephone line but do not have their own equipment in the exchange.

Re: Constructive posting

tijara33 — Wed, 08 May 2013 19:08:36 GMT

Well said!
In short, as my late mother used to say, (repeatedly)!, politeness costs you nothing & will get you a lot further, a lot quicker than behaving like a neanderthal moron. I would also add that the correct useage of spelling & grammar will increase the chances of a positive response.

Re: Constructive posting

Anotherone — Wed, 08 May 2013 19:53:02 GMT

Can't disagree with any of the above. As much as I can understand some people being angry about their problem, let's hope they take note.
Edit: I have also suggested the thread be made a sticky.

Re: Constructive posting

Luzern — Wed, 08 May 2013 21:53:16 GMT

In total agreement

May be the thread should be pinned

Re: Constructive posting

Teds31 — Wed, 08 May 2013 22:06:22 GMT

Thats a very good post Jelv and I think it should be pinned. Ted.

Re: Constructive posting

Steve — Wed, 08 May 2013 22:10:23 GMT

Well I think this should be mailed to each and every Plusnet customer

Re: Constructive posting

Oldjim — Wed, 08 May 2013 22:19:47 GMT

Not yet and possibly not here even though this board catches most of the rants (used to be called Rants and Raves Section) - this is probably the correct place http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/board,17.0.html but it really would lack visibility
Will wait and see other comments and staff thoughts
My initial thought as a forum member not a moderator is that this guidance could be of more benefit to other posters who can pile in and scare off a new poster as the really teed off poster would probably ignore it. As such a reminder about Forum Etiquette in replying to somewhat abrasive and intemperate newbie posts wouldn't come amiss

Re: Constructive posting

jelv — Wed, 08 May 2013 22:40:30 GMT

I did consider putting it on the other board Jim, but thought that as this is where the 'troublesome' topics often appear, this was the more appropriate place.
Even if it's not stickied, I intend to post links to it (or quote it) when needed in response to some opening posts.
If a really teed off poster ignored it and then carried on in the same style would you be more tolerant of critical responses?

Re: Constructive posting

markm9 — Wed, 08 May 2013 22:49:34 GMT

well said jelv, excellent post

Re: Constructive posting

Anotherone — Wed, 08 May 2013 23:02:23 GMT

Well I think it should stay on this board. There is frankly no excuse for the way some rants are constructed - whatever the individuals education has been. It ought to be patently obvious that there a lot of posters fed up with seeing rants that are phrased the way some of them are even when the poster has a legitimate grievance with Plusnet.

Re: Constructive posting

Mayfly — Thu, 09 May 2013 06:33:14 GMT

I understand a lot of these posts are the result of posting when seeing red mist but personally I agree with everything above.
Whilst BB problems are very annoying it is obvious when, someone fires from the hip,especially on their first post, they are not doing themselves any favours. It is the concise and well explained posts that gain the most help.

Re: Constructive posting

Chris — Thu, 09 May 2013 07:59:37 GMT

I agree with what Jelv has said in the opening post, and I agree with Oldjim too. There needs to be a balance between feedback, help and welcoming people to the community.

Re: Constructive posting

Townman — Thu, 09 May 2013 10:30:38 GMT

Chris,
Whilst there needs to be balance, people (with problems) need to understand that there is a proper support process which should be followed first, ranting here is emotive, often devoid of facts and therefore does not help willing others to assist them - indeed it can deter people from giving assistance.
Given that these boards are open to all - including non-PN users (potential users) they frequently portray an highly inaccurate view of what PN does deliver for their users and therefore can be highly (incorrectly) detrimental to PN. I note with some degree of annoyance that when an issue (having a very negative title) has been progressed and resolved, the OP rarely says thank you or considers revising the title. The one entitled "I'm leaving... becasue PN is so dammed bad" about some guy with a (comparatively) minor complaint about PN billing and went to Talk Talk, got right royally stiffed, came running back to PN who did 'above and beyond' to get him a new line and back on air... particularly comes to mind. To anyone visiting here to see what PN are like, would (unless they read the many pages of the saga) get the view that PN are so dammed poor that people readily leave for Talk Talk!
Whilst the position that "my contract is with PN so everything is PN's problem" is to a point valid, not accepting that PN (like all other ISPs) is at the mercy of BTw / BTOR (the distinction of which is lost on most) is highly unreasonable. I have had a long on going line issue since Dec 2012; I have had multiple BTOR visits with varying degrees of success. The fact that the issue is not resolved to everyone's satisfaction is not PN's fault. The local BTOR infrastructure is questionable - PN have moved and still are moving heaven and earth with BTOR to rectify this. I do not believe that any other ISP would have tried as hard as has PN, nor do I believe I would have received the same level of first class assistance from other forum users and PN if I'd ranted about it.
These are 'lessons' that need to be explained to some people here on the forum, because frankly (irrespective of the fact that they might have a justifiable complaint) their posts are quite rude.
Please make Jelv's post 'sticky' and include the sentiments into the forum rules.

Regards,
Kevin

Re: Constructive posting

Strat — Thu, 09 May 2013 11:23:30 GMT

As has been implied on here people having a red mist rant are doing so down the barrel of a gun with no peripheral vision and would therefore not see jelv's sticky post good as it is...unless it was pointed out to them which may inflame the situation.

Re: Constructive posting

Razer — Thu, 09 May 2013 11:26:22 GMT

Quote from: Oldjim
My ... thought ... is that this guidance could be of more benefit to other posters who can pile in and scare off a new poster as the really teed off poster would probably ignore it.

This would be my view, too.
----------
Flying accusations of 'being childish' at posters who rant, are equally 'childish':
Griever: PN is shit.
Responder: You are a moron.
Who is the nobler here? Who is the more mature? Neither.
Folks, you are asking rationality from those who are in a state of anger. It is like asking the impossible. Asking for black to be white, hate to be love. It is like asking someone to eat when their system is flooded with adrenalin and the stomach has shut down. People who are so wound up that they rant are in no position psychologically to say, with calm rationality 'Oh, hang on a minute, I best read the guide for how to behave so that I may come across well and get the help that I need.' They are already at the point where they think they can get no help to sort things out because they have often tried and tried on the phone to PN. So they blow and post. This is not to say that certain rants are entirely excusable, or even likely to garner help for the person with the grievance. Neither does it mean that negative reactions are excusable, either. What is so difficult about reading a rant, and though you may think it's a bit much, being able to see and say to oneself 'I understand this person is so wound up and they need to express' without getting embroiled in a personal reaction? Why get personal about what people may say about a company with which you have no personal ties? Because, let me tell you, you are just a paying customer to a business that does NOT love you. You do not need to protect it or it's reputation. It doesn't care, it has no feelings.
If someone posts an angry post, see it for what it is, understand ... and then move on if you are not inclined to help.
It has several times been expressed that so many who have come and posted angrily just don't come back so they don't deserve us trying to help them anyway. Has it not occurred to you that they may not post again because once they have calmed down and become 'rational' again, they may feel embarrassed by how they expressed themselves? Why not stop judging people on what is apparent and think a little more about what is or may be back of.
As a certain generation would say: 'Props' to those like Anotherone, who despite his views still calmly makes effort to help the angriest poster.

Re: Constructive posting

EnglishMohican — Thu, 09 May 2013 11:41:43 GMT

Quote from: jelv
. . . and it is inevitable that several people will post to refute the assertion (usually a pretty brief "Squawk: Mine's great") . . .

I see no reason why it should be inevitable at all (my bold). That sort of response is totally unhelpful in every way. It gives the troubled poster no help in resolving their problem and as you (jelv) say, it almost certainly just winds them up further, which does not help the experienced and helpful poster or the staff to resolve the problem. It is this sort of response that you should be campaigning against even more than the rant format of the initial post.
If the troubled poster (I cannot say OP in this thread but you know what I mean) is calm and collected and asking for technical help, they would probably post in the "Help and Support" forums and I agree wholeheartedly that posts in those forums should not be in rant mode at all. In many ways, the feedback forum is set up to catch the rants and keep the other forums calm and logical. Banning rants everywhere will simply mean that they pop up at random everywhere which I am against.
Further, feedback is often not a request for the sort of help that the experienced and helpful users (there are too many to name) can provide. Quite often feedback is of the sort "Customer services have told me a pack of lies and really wound me up" and in these cases it is only Plusnet staff who can investigate, find out the truth and devise a suitable route out of the situation. Similarly, the posts such as "my fibre router has not been delivered in time" and "the engineer has not turned up for the 3rd time" are really a commentary on Plusnet's internal processes, something for them to consider and correct if necessary. (I know the engineers are from Openreach - it's still Plusnet's problem whether they can influence it or not). I occasionally reply to these sort of feedback threads but when I do, I am generally trying to emphasise my concern at Plusnet's failure and encourage Plusnet to address the cause of the problem and prevent future occurrences. In those cases it helps immensely if I can understand the original post so I do understand and support the idea that posts should be in recognisable english.
So to round this up, in the Help and Support forums, I am totally in agreement with jelv's original post. In the feedback forum, I feel that we have to allow customers or potential customers to express themselves in any way that they can manage. Any feedback however angry or badly phrased is better than no feedback because the customer gives up and walks away. We need to give Chris and Matt and the other staff a chance to do their jobs and intercept the irate customer before they leave and try to keep them in the fold.

Re: Constructive posting

w23 — Thu, 09 May 2013 11:55:54 GMT

Very eloquent (if that's the right word) Razer.
Better to ignore than inflame, better still if the poster can be calmed down with a bit of rationality. I've seen posts over the years that have started as horrendous rants that have ended with profuse thanks (and/or apologoies) and the OP becoming a very happy customer and active forum member.
It is true, of course, true that the best way to get the best help is to ask politely, calmly and rationally and guiding posters (OPs and responders alike) in that direction can never be a bad thing.
This forum has always been pretty free from censorship (except for when things get out of hand or posts blatantly break forum rules), some sites summarily remove all posts with the least criticism of their organisation - I'd hate to see this one going that way.
Yes, lets encourage sensible posts and discourage troll-like posting but lets try to be understanding of those who feel aggrieved at the time of posting, perhaps suggesting that they edit excessively strong titles and comments once they're calmed down a bit. If a poster 'disappears' after leaving a strongly worded post about their unreliable broadband, don't forget they may have become disconnected and unable to update!
This is still far and away the best support forum I've encountered, long may it continue.
[Edit - just spelling]

Re: Constructive posting

Anotherone — Thu, 09 May 2013 12:21:47 GMT

Well I don't agree with the implications of your last paragraph EnglishMohican, you seem to be suggesting we should not comment in the Feedback forum and leave Plusnet to deal with it.
In quite a few cases a bit of sympathy and support from other users goes a long way into calming down a situation and getting to the bottom of the issue(s) which in some cases only Plusnet can address and in a few cases Plusnet need to be given the views of others about how something has been handled or done.
There are however a greater number of posts on Feedback these days where the user is needing technical help, sometimes where Plusnet has seemingly been unable to do so.
There are also an increasing number of posts that are clearly OTT in the way that the poster's anger has been expressed, and I'm sorry I do not agree that such OTT posts should go "unchallenged", however the way in which that is done has to depend on the individual post. I have on a number of occasions given a fairly "robust" response to some such posts and gone on to help the individual concerned and in most cases with a happy outcome.
I don't have time right at this moment to make the necessary more detailed comments and suggestions, but will try and do so later today.

Re: Constructive posting

EnglishMohican — Thu, 09 May 2013 13:41:01 GMT

Quote from: Anotherone
..... we should not comment in the Feedback forum and leave Plusnet to deal with it ....

@anotherone: That is the second time in two days that you have read more into one of my posts than I ever intended (and more than I said in my view). Given that I spent over an hour carefully crafting my reply to be as reasonable, fair and as grammatical as I could possibly manage without the post becoming monstrously long, it perhaps goes to show that what the reader understands from reading something may have more to do with their own views and prejudices than what was originally written! And that probably applies even more to "Plusnet is rubbish" rants than to my carefully crafted phraseology.
@everybody - not just anotherone : I am all for friendly, calming, helpful replies to any post. As commented further up the thread, anotherone generally does a very good job of that sort of reply as he did in the rant thread that triggered this thread. Oldjim, jelv, w23 and others provide excellent, helpful replies frequently (I originally wrote "on occasions" but decided that would provide too much room for somebody to take it the wrong way and be offended!).
The people I am against are those who are determined to kick somebody when they are down; posters who reply with "My fibre works wonderfully" or "He must be a troll" when somebody says that customer services will not help them as happened on the thread (now edited) that triggered this thread. The first of those was irrelevant and the second was almost certainly totally wrong.
jelv's wish for calm, clear posts is fine but when the red mist mode descends on somebody either ignore them or answer helpfully. Do not kick them. It is hard enough to post when you are struggling without knowing you are going to be welcomed by a barrage of taunts.

Re: Constructive posting

Anotherone — Thu, 09 May 2013 13:53:32 GMT

Sorry, you think I've read more into your post than you'd intended. I'll send you a PM.
Edit: And it has nothing to do with my views and whatever prejudices you seem to thing I have!