topic Re: Fibre Install - Engineer Didn't Turn Up in Plusnet Feedback

Fibre Install - Engineer Didn't Turn Up

WhereInSussex — Fri, 19 Oct 2012 17:55:23 GMT

I booked this afternoon off work. Nobody showed up for my FTTC install. No contact was made until 17:05, when I had a missed call from a non returnable number, while I was on another call.
Whilst I appreciate it is not the fault of Plusnet, I am somewhat irked by the fact that:
a) you can only have appointments weekdays 8-1 or 1-6: how are these convenient for most of the working population or people with kids to drop off?
b) when BT don't "have a resource" (presumably that is code for an engineer), they don't seem to bother to communicate this with their client (Plusnet), who have to chase it
c) if you are a Plusnet customer and you miss the appointment, you get slapped with a £50 fine. If BT miss the appointment, um, they remake the appointment for a more inconvenient time
d) the consumer is at the whim of the infrastructure provider
e) there is no comeback from BT Openreach to the end user, because we aren't their customer
f) if they miss an appointment on a Friday afternoon, everyone at BT goes home and you can't get it dealt with until Monday
The monopoly that Openreach have on the "last mile" mean that the only people who can possibly lose are the end users. They are the ones who have to take time off, turn down overtime, get someone to pick the kids up from school. The communications provider still get their customer and BT Openreach still get paid for the job.
And when you go to the Openreach website, you get told that you have to complain to your "CP", who, quite frankly, have done nothing wrong.

Re: Fibre Install - Engineer Didn't Turn Up

Anotherone — Fri, 19 Oct 2012 19:13:30 GMT

I'd still leave a complaint, but as I've said many times before please complain to OFCON about BTWholesale and OpenRetch as well, oh they will probably say they don't want to know and complain to the CP but tell them that isn't good enough, you want your complaint logged, and they are the regulator, why aren't they dealing with this repetitive poor performance.

Re: Fibre Install - Engineer Didn't Turn Up

chrispurvey — Fri, 19 Oct 2012 21:34:22 GMT

Hi WhereInSussex,
Sorry to hear that the engineer has not attended the allocated appointment.
You have certainly made a fair few valid points in your post.
I will get this picked up for you in the morning as I'm not in the office right now and I'll make sure we can get an appointment that is convenient for you.
Chris

Re: Fibre Install - Engineer Didn't Turn Up

WhereInSussex — Fri, 19 Oct 2012 21:40:37 GMT

Thanks Chris,
There is a ticket open on my account, I just feel "frustrated". I'd like to emphasise that the staff I dealt with at Plusnet were understanding and sounded equally frustrated (although maybe not so surprised!).
I'm just looking forward to having nice, fast broadband, from an ISP who has been recommended by several people that I respect for their opinions!

Re: Fibre Install - Engineer Didn't Turn Up

chrispurvey — Fri, 19 Oct 2012 22:28:46 GMT

I understand your frustration with this and I'm glad you feel that we are doing our utmost to get you connected. Like I said I'll be onto this first thing in the morning for you and we'll take it from there.

Re: Fibre Install - Engineer Didn't Turn Up

penfold — Sat, 20 Oct 2012 08:50:34 GMT

Yet anothet thread about a bt no show... This is getting silly. I for one would like an explanation from jamie ford as to what is being done about this at ceo level... Noshows are becoming the rule rather than the exception.. also, i agree with the op, there does need to be more flexabilty with the appt slots, 2hr shots would be bettet, and come on in this day and age it can be done... Asda can do it. I have an engineer coming mon, and i have to ask my mother to wait in the house if they havnt arrived by 3 so my.wife can pick up the kids from school...

Re: Fibre Install - Engineer Didn't Turn Up

Strat — Sat, 20 Oct 2012 09:08:50 GMT

Talk Talk and Sky to name but two are having the same issues.
In fairness there will be many fibre installs that go like clockwork and don't appear in the forums for obvious reasons.
ISPs are not to blame but it's ISPs that can suffer the consequences.

Re: Fibre Install - Engineer Didn't Turn Up

WhereInSussex — Sat, 20 Oct 2012 09:20:59 GMT

The problem is (for the end user) the lack of accountability that the monopoly that is Openreach has to them.
We don't know, for example, how many appointments were assigned to the exchange engineers that day for our area, how big that areas is, how many were kept, how many were cancelled by OR and how many of these were notified to the end user before the appointment time.
The explanation of "there wasn't a resource available" does not tell us anything, other than they ran out of staff. I presume this is down to BT's "resource management" - they want their engineers to be working as close to 100% productivity as possible, probably won't pay overtime and know that they will have the job rebooked and end up paid for it, regardless.
It's an abuse of position: gas, electricity and water companies are bound by law to pay compensation for missed appointments, BT aren't, and BT charge the ISP if we aren't in for an appointment, but it's a one way street with that too!

Re: Fibre Install - Engineer Didn't Turn Up

davidj66 — Sat, 20 Oct 2012 11:06:23 GMT

Re BT Openreach "workloads"-
1. In my area of South Wales the engineers are no longer attached to an exchange - they can be (and are) sent to a fault/installation in an area of which they have no geographical knowledge; frequently this is a long way from the prior call and they are not supplied with SatNavs,so have to manage with printed or downloaded maps.The engineer who attended in May told me that the previous day he had spent 2 hours just looking for the premises!!!
2. As far as I could ascertain from conversations with the two BTO men who have attended faults at my place in the last 6 months, they only have an outline of the job/problem when they arrive; so there is no way that they can predict how long that it is going to take. Once they finish they log in for another job which could be miles away. Presumably BTO administratively take a fixed number of jobs per day,so its easy to see how some will drop off.
3. I have been told previously by a BT man (over a pint!), that there have been cases of BT engineers being disciplined for consistently not completing expected number of tasks - so ,to avoid this, some BT engineers will do a "drive by" so that it shows on the vehicle tracker ,then use "the householder not in attendance" line.
The only cure is to increase their workforce - but that ain't going to happen anytime soon - in fact I can see an increasing drive to outsource work to contractors to reduce headcounts still further - further reduces accountability but pleases the bean counters!!!

Re: Fibre Install - Engineer Didn't Turn Up

chrispurvey — Sat, 20 Oct 2012 12:24:48 GMT

I've had a look into this and as you're aware it was due to a lack of resource. A tentative date has been booked in but I will get this brought forward on Monday for you. I'll let you know the dates available and see what suits you best.

Re: Fibre Install - Engineer Didn't Turn Up

WhereInSussex — Sat, 20 Oct 2012 12:27:06 GMT

Thanks Chris, I look forward to sorting it out

Re: Fibre Install - Engineer Didn't Turn Up

Mark — Sat, 20 Oct 2012 12:28:50 GMT

A couple of points to highlight.
Openreach are in a mess. No doubt of that.
Its been caused by a number of factors, this years weather being one and poor resource planning being another.
The weather created a huge amount of problems at the network level and drove an increase of about 45% to the national repair workstack.
Since April its been all hands on deck, with contractual overtime implemented, leave reduced and back office staff returned to the field.
Additionally recruitment has been increased, contractors extended and further resource pulled from other areas of the business.
Even with that, the weather continues to conspire against them causing resource to be redeployed to the most affected areas and repair being prioritised over provision.
There is a hell of a lot of work going on at a senior level within Openreach to turn this around, from a resourcing, systems and process perspective. The industry is, rightly, kicking the life out of them and the OR director team are hosting regular conference calls with the industry to keep them appraised of progress.
Right now its the customer and the ISP suffering and there wont be a quick fix. Its a mammoth organisation and the strategy will take time to implement.
Its far from ideal right now and their performance in many areas falls way short of acceptable but there are some very focussed and driven people at director level in OR working on and delivering change. I'm certain they'll get there.
For now, its up to ISP's, like Plusnet, to continue to escalate failings and fight the customers corner. I know Plusnet do that every single day.
Mark

Re: Fibre Install - Engineer Didn't Turn Up

WhereInSussex — Sat, 20 Oct 2012 13:00:34 GMT

I understand the issues that they have, the weather being one. I'm sure they are working on it etc etc,
But, as you say since April it's been all hands on deck, but I only booked my appointment a couple of weeks back. At which point before 6pm yesterday did it become obvious to BT that they wouldn't have a member of staff to come round? Let's face it, if you book less appointments for provision each day, then, if they have so much "weather" related work to do, then any slack in the system can be diverted to emergencies.
Would it be acceptable at director level in Openreach if they didn't get paid on time and nobody bothered to tell them in advance, because payroll were too busy? (that's purely rhetorical by the way!)
Yes, the weather hasn't been great this year, but this is the British Isles, and if it has surprised BTOR, then you've got to wonder who is running the company!
Why open orders on an exchange on 29th September, if you will be unable to fulfil them?

Re: Fibre Install - Engineer Didn't Turn Up

Mark — Sat, 20 Oct 2012 13:24:39 GMT

They dont know they cant fulfill them.
The order is placed, accepted and comitted. It then moves to the engineering resource control system. This is fully automated and clearly not working effectively.
Using some, I'm sure clever, algorithim, it predicts the number of jobs vs resource availability based on expected / projected job completion timings.
What it cant cope with is the law of sod, emergency cases, an engineer taking sick, breaking down or having an accident. Similarly, resource being pulled away at short notice to deal with an MBORC situation also screws it.
Noone deliberately takes an order knowing it cant be delivered. The failing isnt spotted until well after the event.
As I said earlier. This forms part of the ongoing project piece to deliver improvements within OR. What should be remembered is that the vast majority of daily appointments are met. The forums highlight those which fail. Bottom line is that all appointments should be met and thats what they are working towards.
Mark

Re: Fibre Install - Engineer Didn't Turn Up

Anotherone — Sat, 20 Oct 2012 15:02:38 GMT

Thanks for your detailed responses Mark, glad to hear that all that is happening. But I still feel that a significant part of the problem is/was poor regulation by OFCOM which had allowed OR to carry on in a disorganised and inefficient way and get complacent. They've now had a wake-up call, but that doesn't excuse poor regulation. I also have to say that my comments equally, or possibly more so, apply to BT Wholesale.

Re: Fibre Install - Engineer Didn't Turn Up

Mark — Sat, 20 Oct 2012 18:29:30 GMT

Quote
But I still feel that a significant part of the problem is/was poor regulation by OFCOM which had allowed OR to carry on in a disorganised and inefficient way and get complacent.

I'm not convinced further regulation is needed or indeed the cause. They (OR) are certainly very heavily policed from an EOI (Equivalence of Input) perspective by OFCOM. My belief is that the current problems are self inflicted but the internal improvements in resourcing, better integration of systems and much better management is the answer. That's achievable without intervention from the regulator and is simply good business sense.
Dissat with Openreach across the industry is at an all time high and that alone is a strong trigger for change. I get regulation but I'm not convinced all of it is as effective or efficient as it should, but that's for another day. They can and must fix themselves. what exists right now is fundamentally broken but the correct moves, measures and people are now in place to fix that. I guess time will tell.

Quote
I also have to say that my comments equally, or possibly more so, apply to BT Wholesale.

I kind of disagree on that front. BTW have their issues and challenges, however they are so reliant on OR they are left in pretty much the same position as ISP's / CP's. If OR are screwed it has a huge direct knock on effect on BTW.The Wholesale systems and processes are pretty slick and have improved greatly over the years, they can fall down once interaction is needed with Openreach.
Don't get me wrong, they are not perfect, but operationally, they are in much better shape than their infield counterparts.
That said, Liv Garfield and her team are driven, enthusiastic and very customer focused. There is full understanding of the challenges and a huge desire to resolve the ongoing problems. There's a bit of legacy behaviors to change in that mix but it will and has to happen.
Mark

Re: Fibre Install - Engineer Didn't Turn Up

Anotherone — Sat, 20 Oct 2012 19:21:45 GMT

Thanks for your reply, interesting. I wasn't suggesting "more" regulation was needed, basically giving them a kicking when they foul up and not allowing them to increase their prices just to fund their ongoing inefficiency.

Re: Fibre Install - Engineer Didn't Turn Up

Mark — Sat, 20 Oct 2012 19:28:22 GMT

Fair enough. I don't think raising prices will send the necessary signal to the industry. Driving efficiences and reducing unnecessary costs will deliver enough benefits in the long term.
Mark

Re: Fibre Install - Engineer Didn't Turn Up

WhereInSussex — Sat, 20 Oct 2012 23:31:14 GMT

Well gents, things have certainly gone up a gear!
Despite being told that this would be looked into on Monday (by two members of staff) someone rather keenly picked it up this afternoon and managed to, without checking with me, make an expedited appointment for Monday afternoon! When I messaged back saying I couldn't make it, I was told that now it was booked, and as it's Saturday, it can't be cancelled and I WILL be charged £50 - which was confirmed with a supervisor, who went home during the call and therefore I couldn't speak to personally (I'm serious.....). I was also told that, as it had been expedited once, if I am not in on Monday 1-6pm (I'm working 1-10pm) and the misses can't be in all afternoon, that BT won't expedite it again. So, basically, for not agreeing to an appointment time, I'm being charged £50 and will possibly have to wait three more weeks for my service.
Good, honest broadband from Yorkshire.
I've written a reply to the ticket which was opened regarding this:

Quote
I am somewhat at a loss as what to do about this. I feel that even the suggestion I "may" have to pay a £50 fine if I don't take Monday off work is a complete disgrace.
I am therefore formally putting into writing my version of events.
When I signed up for FTTC with you, I requested three potential dates for activation. Given the time (a weekend+three working days) it took for my old ISP to issue a MAC code, I was not overly surprised when I got a date that was one day after the latest date I had chosen.
This was not a day off for me, so I arranged with my employer that I would work an early shift (0600-1400) and arranged with a colleague to relieve me early, so I could be home for 13:00. I then wasted an afternoon, waiting for a BT engineer to arrive. Nobody arrived.
I then called Plusnet just before 6pm on the day of the failed installation, to report that nobody had arrived. After being on hold for 4 mins and 20 seconds, the call was cut off. I called again and, in a call lasting 14 mins and 46 seconds I spoke to Christopher Green, so was very helpful and said he would call me back, when he had spoken to BT. He phoned me back shortly afterwards and explained that BT were unable to make the appointment due to "lack of resource". He explained he would request a tentative appointment with BT and then, on Monday, when this appointment had been accepted, he would contact BT and me to arrange an expedited appointment. Apparently the system requires the first appointment to be accepted before intervention can take place. Although I was annoyed in the extreme that I had been messed about, I accepted it was not Plusnet's fault and was grateful for the assistance Christopher had given me.
I was frustrated that BT Openreach could treat end users with such contempt: if I had not been in and the engineer had arrived, I'd have received a fine of £50 - which I understand is the charge that BT give to Plusnet for an abortive call due to lack of access. There is no compensation it seems to either Plusnet or me for the inconvenience of BT just not bothering to turn up. A one way street by a monopoly.
As I was frustrated, I put my frustration in writing, explaining I understood that it was not Plusnet's fault and praising the staff, on the Plusnet forum. http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,108547.0.html
I was impressed that one of your forum staff, Chris Purvey, took personal responsibility for checking this out when he got back to the office today (Saturday). I duly received this response on the forum at 13:24 this afternoon:
"I've had a look into this and as you're aware it was due to a lack of resource. A tentative date has been booked in but I will get this brought forward on Monday for you. I'll let you know the dates available and see what suits you best."
So, now I have two people who have told me this will be looked into on Monday, and both have put this in writing. My faith in telecoms providers was somewhat restored.
Later in the afternoon I received a text message at 17:00, informing me that my FTTC appointment had been booked for 22/10/2012 between 1pm and 6pm and if I wasn't there then there would be a £50 fine. Impressed as I was, it was completely impossible for me to make this appointment, as I am rostered to work 14:00-22:00 and there is no chance of being able to change this at 5pm on a Saturday afternoon. So I logged on and found two messages in my "message" area from [removed]. One of these, at 14:47, stated that he would be trying for an AM or PM appointment on Monday or Tuesday and the second, at 16:59, stated basically the same as the SMS message.
As I was unable to make this appointment, I replied online:
"Thank you for your assistance in rebooking this so quickly.
Unfortunately it is not possible to have someone here on Monday afternoon. I can make a Monday morning appointment before 12. Failing this, I can make a Thursday afternoon appointment this week (25th) 1-6pm."
A few minutes later I received a phone call from link:csa removed, saying, basically that a) there was nothing that could be done to change the appointment now, b) if I wasn't in, there would be a fine (he discussed this with his supervisor, who confirmed it, but then had gone home when I asked to speak to them directly), c) it was inferred that I had accepted the suggested dates and d) now it had been expedited once, it could never happen again.
Whilst I admire Mr Simpson's efforts to "put his neck out" (his words) to sort out an appointment on the next working day, it simply wasn't convenient and I did not have time to respond to the first message, sent in the middle of the afternoon on a Saturday, before the appointment was cemented. I was also unimpressed that, despite it being in writing (ticket *****) that I would be contacted on Monday, and again on your forum, Mr Simpson said that the tape would have to be pulled, so that it could be proved one way or the other what was said!
In this situation, it is simply unacceptable to even suggest I may have to pay £50 to BT, for an appointment I never requested. If anyone should be getting £50 it should be me for sitting in all afternoon on Friday.
I am also unimpressed that, apparently, if I don't make the appointment on Monday, then because Plusnet have made an error in an erroneous booking, and BT have made an error in overbooking their engineers so nobody turned up, the combination of the two errors means that it is impossible for Plusnet to expedite a second appointment, on a day that IS convenient FOR ME, the end user! Without end users there would be no ISPs, and without ISPs there would be no FTTC, and so BT Openreach and BT Wholesale would not exist in their current form. The monopoly that is your supplier (I say monopoly, if they don't perform, there is no other option for you or me) are basically laughing all the way to the bank and do not care if I sit in every day for a week waiting for them, because they know I have no other choice.
As I explained, when I received the appointment, I am available this week on Thursday for a PM appointment. It's not ideal, it's not convenient, but I can do it.
If the appointment HAS to be on Monday, despite my best efforts I have been unable to find anyone available to sit in my house for five hours. This is understandable, as, Monday to Friday, between 1pm and 6pm most people have something to do, be it work, getting the children from school, or preparing dinner for the family. My partner will be here after she finishes work, between 15:15 and 16:20, when she needs to go back to work. If BT can possibly actually humanly intervene in the appointments system, do the external work in the exchange/cabinet and be here for 15:15, then they will have over an hour to change the faceplate and test the circuit. I do not require an extension, and everything is ready to go.
I'm sure the above will not be possible, as BT seem to dynamically and automatically assign their engineers (aka "resources) to the next job, when one job is finished. But maybe on this occasion both companies, at manager level, could look down and see that the only person who has done nothing wrong, is me.
Finally, you tell me in the appointment message that I must request a change at least two working days before, even though the appointment is the next working day, yet on your legal page (https://portal.plus.net/info2/legal/) under Fibre Optic Paragraph 4, it is three days. This is a complete nonsense and makes the whole system unworkable.
I look forward to your response in this matter and that you are able to live up to your slogan of providing "Good, honest broadband"

[Moderator's note by Adie (dvorak) CSA name removed as per Forum Rules

Re: Fibre Install - Engineer Didn't Turn Up

Anotherone — Sun, 21 Oct 2012 00:14:51 GMT

Well that really is just not acceptable, making appointments without checking with you first that you would be available. Well at least this particular type of foul up doesn't occur very often